10:00/mi ONLY runs or 5:00/mi ONLY runs: which is better for the marathon? We intend to find out.

Like my last comment - if the original hypothetical was 6:00/mi instead of 5:00/mi I probably would have favored 6:00/mi and never taken the bet to begin with. Once the pace gets solidly above threshold that just opens the door to so much more volume. Not to mention Vinny was fond of running 6:00/mi on our easy runs back in our college days anyway - and was consistently clearing 90 mpw. No contest, Vinny wins.

You can do continous bounding on flat @10min/mile pace ;) that is hardcore strenght training. Start with 1min,throw in into regular running. Proceed to daily 15-20min gradually. (5x4min...4x5min etc). It will activate your anaerob system too,if you do them continously 60sec+

No bending the rules !

the 5:00 guy wins 99% of the time

your only chance is if you do huge volume at 10:00 (150+ miles per week)

I have trained both ways essentially (25-40 miles a week at roughly 5:30 and 150 miles per week at 9:00). The problem with going so slow is - it is too slow. Your gains will be limited.

the 5:00 pace is quick but for an 8:15 3K guy - not out of this world fast. I would give him this advice = run every other day. This lets your body recover so you can run fast again in two days. It worked incredibly well for me when I did it at age of 24 = I set all of my pr's.

when I ran slow (too slow that is) I just got slow.

If the bet was 5:00-5:30 vs 7:00-8:00 (now you have a 50/50 toss up)

but at 5:00 vs 10:00 = 5:00 wins if the runner is good enough to handle that pace 99% of the time.

The problem is that Vinny is likely nowhere near his 14:00 shape anymore, we have no idea long it will take for him to get back to that level. If he let himself decay to 17:00 shape or even slower, then there is no way he can handle training at 5:00 for any significant amount of volume or regularity on a weekly basis.

Very interesting thread though, will be following this.

I've got two items of curiosity with this.

Firstly, how on earth are each of you going to set your target race pace for the actual marathon? Because irrespective of your actual "form" going into the race, if one of you over-reaches by 4-5 minutes you could be blowing unnecessarily when the other guy cruises past having set their target more conservatively.

But secondly, and sort of linked to that; have you thought about taking some baseline physiological metrics at the start? e.g. resting HR, maybe lactate threshold readings etc. It would be so interesting to see, irrespective of the race, which of your two training approaches has the bigger impact on your actual fitness.

If both of you were starting this with current decent mileage and sub 15 5ks in the last couple of months, I'd back the 5min/mile plan. But starting from a rusty position? I'm not sure; will keep watching!

• Distance: 15.46 miles
• Time: 2h 35m
• Avg Pace: 10:01/mi
• Number of Runs: 4
• Elevation: 1196 ft
• Violations: 1

Observations:

Training is off to a cracking start. I ran a little less than I had hoped to this week, but that's mostly because my whole weekend was taken up by packing up and moving across state lines and into a new city and a new apartment for my job that started today. Some observations/thoughts on the training:

10:00/mi is slow. Painfully slow. This will suck. In fact, its actually somewhat difficult. Not physically speaking necessary, but the difference between 9:30/mi and 10:30/mi is almost imperceptible, and my GPS watch has a hard time telling that difference too. Satellite accuracy seems to suffer at such a slow pace.

My HR is higher than I would have expected. During track I would average 145-155 bpm for ~7:00/mi on hilly terrain. At 10:00 I'm around 125-135 bpm. At the same time, my ventilatory rate is super low - I can run breathing entirely through my nose at a relaxed rate. Whether or not the HR/breathing discrepancy is bug or a feature is undetermined

I also had a thought about our pace margins - while we each have a buffer of 30 sec/mile for splits, Vinny has a margin of error of 10%. Mine is 5%. These slim margins resulted in the first violation of the challenge: on Thursday, I opened my run with a 9:41 mile. Oops.

• Distance: 3.08 miles
• Time: 19m 55s
• Avg Pace: 6:27/mi
• Number of Runs: 3
• Elevation: 92 ft
• Violations: 0

Observations

When asked for his thoughts and observations on his training so far, Vinny had only this to say: "Summary is that I have yet to run more than 0.5 miles at 5:00/mi." When pressed for more, he remarked, "Yeah, I think its gonna be pretty impossible for Joe to win or even be remotely competitive." Ever the optimist.

I bet Vinny goes out way too fast since that is what he will have been training to do. If by some miracle he makes it to mile 20 ahead of me, the Wall will hit him like a freight train and eat him alive. I will then cruise past to take the dub, gg ez

While I'm at it, what are the odds this thread can be featured in the next Dear Distance Gurus column @rojo???

I think until Vinny can actually run 3 miles at 5min/mile, you've got to tweak the rules a bit otherwise it'll be comparing 0 training vs some training.

Cap him at 2 or 3 miles per day at any pace until he can get down to the right training pace?

Might have to adjust Vinny’s pace.

If you can run 10 minute mile pace on steep enough hills then it will be the equivalent of speed work. Recover on the flat.

If you are just running everything on the flat then it will be hard to run at a much faster pace for a thon. 10 pace is literally 4:20. If you do really high mileage and run on steep hills for your hard days you might be able to run a 3:30 thon(8 minute pace) if you are really really lucky.

At my best I could crack sub 16 in 5,000m. If I started just running 1 mile a day at 5 minute pace, so 7 miles a week, it is very low mileage, and I think you could sustain it without injuring yourself. 8 minute miles would feel like walking. You might suffer greatly and blow up but still beat the 10 minute guy.

It probably depends where your fitness level is at the start of the training. If you are fast then you can do fast reps of 1 mile or longer if you can handle it. If you are fast and you drop to 10 minute miles then you just have to hope that you have some muscle memory of how to run fast when race day comes. For Bekele obviously 5 minute pace will be the easy option.

No reps!

I know that is why I said I would of run just 1 mile per day. The daily mile would be continuous and not divided into reps

"... I have yet to run more than 0.5 miles at 5:00/mi." How does he then have 3.08 miles on 3 runs? Am I missing something?

He was allotted 400m worth of warmup per run, wasn't he? Not sure if he logged them though.

What race are you competing at?

"Don't put too many onions in the sauce, Vinny."

"I didn't put too many onions in!!!"

Put on a weight vest or drag a sled while going 10 min/mile pace. That'll make it a workout.

If you live in CO, drive up to the top of Pikes Peak 2-3 weeks before your race and get some altitude training in.