Clearly rekbot and El K will explain soon why these two don't count. Just wait.
What are you counting? Sure the performances themselves count a great deal, being within 3-4 minutes of the world record, but what do we know about the connection between these athletes "doping" and their marathon performances? One of these athletes was sanctioned for "whereabouts failures", and the other for "steroids". Neither of these are particularly known, either academically or anecdotally, to produce faster marathon performances.
WADA and Kenya and ADAK and the AIU have been investigating Kenyan doping, and providing detailed reports, for about a decade, ever since Seppelt accused Kenyans of doping in 2012, following Kisorio's bust. One of the most concerning things about Kenyan athletes is that those with promising talent are being exploited both locally, by doctors and pharmacists, and remotely, by foreign agents. While ADAK and the AIU are increasing the depth of testing of the top layers of (to paraphrase the AIU's Brett Clothier) Kenya's pyramid of talented athletes, it is the most successful who are the ones more likely to be tested and caught.
LOL rekbot. I am counting fast, successful Kenyan dopers. I don't care about your ridiculous doping-doesnt-help-theory. Steroids don't help long distance runners? Hahahaha, what a lame sad joke. Tell that to the East Germanns + Russians + Baumann + Decker + Houlihan + Canova + the recent slew of roided Kenyan marathon runners who are love nandro + testo.
imagine if the UK or the US or any country really, had 26 bans announced in track and field. Why does Kenya get a free pass here. This is insane.
Ethiopians are just as dominant. Are they naturally just faster, better runners than the Kenyans? Or is their antidoping program just worse at catching cheats?
Ethiopians are just as dominant. Are they naturally just faster, better runners than the Kenyans? Or is their antidoping program just worse at catching cheats?
Well the most likely explanation by far is, as you say, they are just worse at catching cheats, although Brett Clothier the head of the AIU has denied this.
I guess it is possible that Ethiopians are more talented runners than Kenyans. Ethiopians had achieved distance running success before Kenya, so it's quite possible John Velzian in the 60's decided to dope the first Kenyan stars, whilst masking it under the 'East African natural born runner' legend that Bikila had seeded and that he (Velzian) promoted.
As far as I know, Ethiopians are very distinct genetically from Kenyans, including the Kalenji (and remember that other Kenyan tribes were held as the most talented in the early 60s). The idea that there is something special about the Rift Valley, that other geographic regions around the world with high altitude somehow lack, is hard to believe.
The problem has been resources. Once Athletics Kenya got more money they were able to out of competition test 2nd and 3rd tier runners. It is good that they are finally cleaning up their sport. Remember they have alot of people to keep track of. In 2023 Kenyan men had 77 under 2:09 the US had 4.
imagine if the UK or the US or any country really, had 26 bans announced in track and field. Why does Kenya get a free pass here. This is insane.
Ethiopians are just as dominant. Are they naturally just faster, better runners than the Kenyans? Or is their antidoping program just worse at catching cheats?
We all know the answer. It's a bit of a conflict of interest catching cheats isn't it. This is why we need independent testers. It is not economical to do so, and very expensive. So these problems will continue for a long time unfortuantely.
All the main bans are athletes who have no bearing on the general image of the sport to the masses. If ya think the best of the best are not micro-dosing or whatever then I can't help you. It's insane in a world filled with cheats to think the Great Authorities are also not cheats.
Imagine 20 of the top 40 ranked athletes in all events got busted in the next month, it would decimate the sport beyond repair. Therefore, IT WILL NOT HAPPEN EVEN IF THEY ARE! A good example is the USA 88 trials and a crazy amount of athletes failing first test. USA just scrubbed it and moved on hahahahaha. Chinese swimming doing the same now.
The only sane way to approach it is either bury your head in the sand and not think about it, or like me accept that dodging getting caught is a part of your skill set. IF you fail its the same as false starting, clattering into a hurdle etc. This is the truth of life, that cheaters when they are good at it, can be heroes. And ya'll never know they were!
And the great thing is now nations are at loggerheads and apparently not getting on, they will cheat each other even more, using whatever they can to wreck their opponents chances.
The only sane way to approach it is either bury your head in the sand and not think about it, or like me accept that dodging getting caught is a part of your skill set. IF you fail its the same as false starting, clattering into a hurdle etc. This is the truth of life, that cheaters when they are good at it, can be heroes. And ya'll never know they were!
Why don't we strive for the ideal of clean sport? Because if you can't believe any result what is the point.
You can't have everything ... if it hurt you that African dominate you, find another way to find solution.
This kind of thread of "crying mother" will zero effect on improving middle and long distance in USA and England.
All right? worthless whinny childish thread that show the low quality of this site.
Kenyans use drugs. Ethiopians use drugs. That’s all.
If we're really honest with ourselves, this is a distinctly European problem, just like slavery. European coaches, agents and managers go to East Africa, bring their drugs, dope up a bunch of athletes, extract money from them and move on to the next. AK is working on cleaning up this European mess. There are examples of Europeans and Americans doping, but it's just harder for them to get away with because European and American anti-doping infrastructure is more well-funded.
So yes, Kenyans and Ethiopians use drugs. So do Americans, Europeans, Asians, Latinos, Arabs, etc.
The only sane way to approach it is either bury your head in the sand and not think about it, or like me accept that dodging getting caught is a part of your skill set. IF you fail its the same as false starting, clattering into a hurdle etc. This is the truth of life, that cheaters when they are good at it, can be heroes. And ya'll never know they were!
Why don't we strive for the ideal of clean sport? Because if you can't believe any result what is the point.
I don't have any confidence that the system is fair, and will ever be fair. The vast majority of laymen believe everybody is on drugs in all pro sport. When you speak to people lower down the pecking order its not hard to guess that everybody is doping, roiders in local clubs etc.
Its not nice and I feel sorry for the athletes that don't cheat and also for the athletes who get it all dumped on them, eg Ben Johnson and Lance Armstrong. It must be heartbreaking to not cheat, come 16th in the 10k and suspect everyone a lap and a half in front of you is on the gear. But there's NOTHING you can do, because people will AWAYS CHEAT when glory and money are on the line!
Life is war! USA is dog eat dog war! Exterminated nations and tribes throughout history, with lies and deception the primary weapon. Your leaders are all well meaning decent human beings who want you to be happy! Hahahaha, their war mongering nest feathering psychopaths who are where they are because that is the nature of life.
All of nature is psychopathic and only some humans are caring of love and the truth, and THEY WILL NEVER BE IN CHARGE.
You dope in Kenya, you'll get caught. Even if you're third-tier nobody like most of these 26. None of them were ever going to stand out. Which country tests their 57th ranked runners in any event?
Ethiopians are just as dominant. Are they naturally just faster, better runners than the Kenyans? Or is their antidoping program just worse at catching cheats?
Well the most likely explanation by far is, as you say, they are just worse at catching cheats, although Brett Clothier the head of the AIU has denied this.
I guess it is possible that Ethiopians are more talented runners than Kenyans. Ethiopians had achieved distance running success before Kenya, so it's quite possible John Velzian in the 60's decided to dope the first Kenyan stars, whilst masking it under the 'East African natural born runner' legend that Bikila had seeded and that he (Velzian) promoted.
As far as I know, Ethiopians are very distinct genetically from Kenyans, including the Kalenji (and remember that other Kenyan tribes were held as the most talented in the early 60s). The idea that there is something special about the Rift Valley, that other geographic regions around the world with high altitude somehow lack, is hard to believe.
If you are a smart enough chap to post this then surely
1 you can accept the possibility that culturally Ethiopians may in general be somewhat less inclined than Kenyans in general to cheat? The possibility may be partly rooted in Kenya having been colonised whilst Ethiopia was not. General media coverage of Kenya, such as it is, suggests corruption is basically how society works there, more so than in Ethiopia. I have 1st hand experience of an Ethiopian runner trying to swindle €1000 from me but he is just a case study of one.
2 have you not read Epsteins The Sports Gene which I believe would largely override your final sentence or at least prompt you to rethink it?