Nothing is "for sure" in the 800 😃 Dominant athletes finish off the podium all the time -- Abukaker Kaki went from Silver in 2011 to 7th in 2012, Clayton Murphy went from Olympic bronze in 2016 to not making the team the next, Makhloufi hasn't really competed since 2019, Emmanuel Korir won in 2022 and was eliminated in the heats in 2023...and so on.
Strange comparisons. There's a difference between guys doing worse from season to season and a guy who is crushing everybody 9 weeks before the Olympic final.
Makhloufi was in his 30's in 2019, then the lockdowns and being exposed by Jimmy Gressier.
The only thing that can stop Sejaditi is if he gets busted, or perhaps he panics like Katir apparently did at Tokyo and lays off the sauce for the Games.
I assume high doping likelihood because he is Algerian and dominating. I also noted he only appears on WA profile age 22 and straight into world class level with no prior history shown. I assume there must be something somewhere to show him progressing prior to this, maybe it's only held within Algerian federation and for whatever reason they kept it internal (perhaps because the data shows a huge leap forward? ). Noone runs sub 1.45 with absolutely no prior track record.
Its interesting that Algerian elite seem v tightly fixed to middle distance and v rarely shine beyond 1500.
Nothing is "for sure" in the 800 😃 Dominant athletes finish off the podium all the time -- Abukaker Kaki went from Silver in 2011 to 7th in 2012, Clayton Murphy went from Olympic bronze in 2016 to not making the team the next, Makhloufi hasn't really competed since 2019, Emmanuel Korir won in 2022 and was eliminated in the heats in 2023...and so on.
Strange comparisons. There's a difference between guys doing worse from season to season and a guy who is crushing everybody 9 weeks before the Olympic final.
Makhloufi was in his 30's in 2019, then the lockdowns and being exposed by Jimmy Gressier.
The only thing that can stop Sejaditi is if he gets busted, or perhaps he panics like Katir apparently did at Tokyo and lays off the sauce for the Games.
I agree with you that the all the british middle distance runners of the late 70s/80s doped, but I see no reason to assume Sejaditi has the same terrible sports ethics.
TL - it's still a diamond league field mate. The slowest runner in that field had a 1.44.47 PR. And maybe Mr Sedjati was somehow the only guy in shape and up for that race yesterday, but guys of that level don't all have bad days and look like club level 800m guys.
I think what we aren't aligned on here is how difficult it is to put that much distance on a field in that amount of time at this level of competition. You might have to trust me on this one that I could have some practical experience of that. Also running under 27.0 seconds for the final 200m of this level of race isn't a bad closing split - where does that come from? It's not his best but it's sure as heck not bad.
And on the form topic - well will have to agree to disagree. And with all due respect quite a few people seem to be seeing something so at what point might it be you that could be missing something? Respectfully.
Or maybe it’s a case of a bunch of groupthink around doping in the 800m, an arbitrary limit to performance and a North African athlete.
Heres the thing - I have no idea if Sedjati is doping. His origins from 2021 are honestly the strangest part of his emergence. What was this guy doing beforehand? We got this answered for Brian Komen because Renato is in Kenya, but we have no Algerian intel. It’s bizarre and suspicious.
I think where we disagree is in evaluating how good someone can look in an 800m. Sebastian Coe ran 1:41.7 in 1980 correct? On this board if someone that we don’t have a history of runs a 1:43, heck even sometimes a 1:44 race, impressively the prevailing sentiment is it is the most obvious doping ever. Moula in 2022, Sedjati in 2024, and there’re many in the past. In a stronger era, Alfred Yego regularly ran closing 100m splits like Sedjati to earn medals.
I understand post-Rudisha there was a slight drought, but it seems Korir and Brazier who ran races 5x this impressively didn’t get this sort of scrutiny. Korir’s London race astonished Coe and you can see his reaction in person. It was waaay more impressive than this one. Now he did get doping suspicions later as Kenyas doping crisis was exposed etc. but Brazier ran a 25.7 last 200 to run 1:42.7 in a DL race too. And then he ran 1:42.34 to win Worlds. Again we didn’t bat an eye because we knew him. And we were also used to Rudisha and an era where 1:42s/impressive 1:43s were considered normal.
After those two guys got hurt, the 800 got bad and there seems to be a perspective that that is the order of things. 1:43.5s which used to be a bare minimum fitness level to make a final were suddenly gold medal material. Ferguson Rotich despite minimal if any improvement went from a 5th-8th best type guy to a gold medal contender. 1:44 became a good time, and it blew our mind to see guys run 1:43s with big finishes or negative splits (see Murphy’s OT win in 2021).
The 800 has gotten better, and we’re still stuck thinking 1:43-mid is awesome. Hoppel is a medal threat again because he ran a 1:43.6 closing in 26.2. The reality? Two guys ran 1:42.8 last year and they are better now. A bunch of guys ran under 1:43.4 last year. 1:42s are going to come back in play and maybe 1:41s. So beating guys maxed out at 1:43-4 by a second? Not worthy of all this commotion.
I assume high doping likelihood because he is Algerian and dominating. I also noted he only appears on WA profile age 22 and straight into world class level with no prior history shown. I assume there must be something somewhere to show him progressing prior to this, maybe it's only held within Algerian federation and for whatever reason they kept it internal (perhaps because the data shows a huge leap forward? ). Noone runs sub 1.45 with absolutely no prior track record.
Its interesting that Algerian elite seem v tightly fixed to middle distance and v rarely shine beyond 1500.
He was unknown even in Algeria before 2021. He literally showed up at the Algerian 2021 indoor championships and finished 2nd in the 600 and 5th in the 300. He had never run an 800 race before April 12, 2021, whereupon he ran 1:45.99 for his debut.
As best as I can find, he was an amateur football player in Algeria and decided to take up track during COVID in 2020 at 21 years old.
TL - it's still a diamond league field mate. The slowest runner in that field had a 1.44.47 PR. And maybe Mr Sedjati was somehow the only guy in shape and up for that race yesterday, but guys of that level don't all have bad days and look like club level 800m guys.
I think what we aren't aligned on here is how difficult it is to put that much distance on a field in that amount of time at this level of competition. You might have to trust me on this one that I could have some practical experience of that. Also running under 27.0 seconds for the final 200m of this level of race isn't a bad closing split - where does that come from? It's not his best but it's sure as heck not bad.
And on the form topic - well will have to agree to disagree. And with all due respect quite a few people seem to be seeing something so at what point might it be you that could be missing something? Respectfully.
Or maybe it’s a case of a bunch of groupthink around doping in the 800m, an arbitrary limit to performance and a North African athlete.
Heres the thing - I have no idea if Sedjati is doping. His origins from 2021 are honestly the strangest part of his emergence. What was this guy doing beforehand? We got this answered for Brian Komen because Renato is in Kenya, but we have no Algerian intel. It’s bizarre and suspicious.
I think where we disagree is in evaluating how good someone can look in an 800m. Sebastian Coe ran 1:41.7 in 1980 correct? On this board if someone that we don’t have a history of runs a 1:43, heck even sometimes a 1:44 race, impressively the prevailing sentiment is it is the most obvious doping ever. Moula in 2022, Sedjati in 2024, and there’re many in the past. In a stronger era, Alfred Yego regularly ran closing 100m splits like Sedjati to earn medals.
I understand post-Rudisha there was a slight drought, but it seems Korir and Brazier who ran races 5x this impressively didn’t get this sort of scrutiny. Korir’s London race astonished Coe and you can see his reaction in person. It was waaay more impressive than this one. Now he did get doping suspicions later as Kenyas doping crisis was exposed etc. but Brazier ran a 25.7 last 200 to run 1:42.7 in a DL race too. And then he ran 1:42.34 to win Worlds. Again we didn’t bat an eye because we knew him. And we were also used to Rudisha and an era where 1:42s/impressive 1:43s were considered normal.
After those two guys got hurt, the 800 got bad and there seems to be a perspective that that is the order of things. 1:43.5s which used to be a bare minimum fitness level to make a final were suddenly gold medal material. Ferguson Rotich despite minimal if any improvement went from a 5th-8th best type guy to a gold medal contender. 1:44 became a good time, and it blew our mind to see guys run 1:43s with big finishes or negative splits (see Murphy’s OT win in 2021).
The 800 has gotten better, and we’re still stuck thinking 1:43-mid is awesome. Hoppel is a medal threat again because he ran a 1:43.6 closing in 26.2. The reality? Two guys ran 1:42.8 last year and they are better now. A bunch of guys ran under 1:43.4 last year. 1:42s are going to come back in play and maybe 1:41s. So beating guys maxed out at 1:43-4 by a second? Not worthy of all this commotion.
There are four factors for me that would indicate doping:
1. Country of origin: sorry, but Russia, Algeria, Morocco, and oil states don't get the benefit of the doubt here. Sedjati is from Algeria. Strike one.
2. Progression: did the runner make a sudden leap at an age that doesn't make sense? Actually nothing surprising in Sedjati's progression, especially knowing the fact that he didn't start running until 2020 and not seriously until 2021.
3. Natural talent: this is what we don't know about Sedjati, since he never appeared in a race until he was 22. Rudisha, Brazier, and Korir all flashed immense talent at young ages. ???
4. Physique: Sedjati is built like El Guerrouj, which means he has a ton of muscle on a supremely slender frame. Strike two.
2. Progression: did the runner make a sudden leap at an age that doesn't make sense? Actually nothing surprising in Sedjati's progression, especially knowing the fact that he didn't start running until 2020 and not seriously until 2021.
Going from zero results to a 1:45 at the age of 21 is not a suspicious progression? I'll have what you're having.
In the late 90s/early 2000s, literally everybody in competitive sport was on PEDs. Every. Single. One. Perhaps you have heard of Major League Baseball?
Now, country of origin very much does matter. Yes, there are plenty of Americans (cough, Shelby, cough) that are dopers, just as there are Brits and especially Kenyans. But those countries also have plenty of runners who are also doing it right. Every time Algeria has had an elite runner, they have had strong ties to doping. That's just a fact. Same with Morocco. Same with basically any Kenyan or Ethiopian that switches allegiances to an oil state. Russia is banned from competition they were so bad.
Morocco, Algeria and Kenya didn't get only successful runners...
See lately one of them was crowned "Spermiler of all times" in your own home.
You must have put something into Google translate that didn't come up right, because "Spermiler of all times" is absolute gibberish.
Regardless, pretty much every person favored to win gold gets accused of doping on LetsRun. Take it as a compliment that people are putting Sedjati as the clear favorite to win gold in the 800 right now.
Sedjati's clearly in 1:42-mid shape, so it shouldn't be a huge surprise that he can pull away from a field in the last 200. He's also been a 1:43 guy for three years now and ran 1:43.06 in Eugene last year, so this isn't a complete overnight transformation.
That said... easy to see why final 200s in Ostrava and Stockholm raised eyebrows. Moula was the Algerian who was supposed to have the elite closing speed— he ran 45.9 as a junior. You'd expect Sedjati to have flashed this talent before, but he has zero listed results prior to 2021. I dunno.
The real test is gonna come when he races Arop and Wanyonyi— if he outclasses them too, then that'll really raise some red flags.
It wouldn't be a surprise if a guy in 1.42 shape pulled away from the field (in this case 1.43/44 runners) in the final 200m. Not a surprise at all.
What is not just surprising but almost shocking is when at this level, someone pulls away from the field and puts almost a whole second on them in the course of the final 70m. So this is why looking at final 200m splits in this case is completely useless because it doesn't tell the story of what we saw.
This post was edited 40 seconds after it was posted.
There are four factors for me that would indicate doping:
1. Country of origin: sorry, but Russia, Algeria, Morocco, and oil states don't get the benefit of the doubt here. Sedjati is from Algeria. Strike one.
2. Progression: did the runner make a sudden leap at an age that doesn't make sense? Actually nothing surprising in Sedjati's progression, especially knowing the fact that he didn't start running until 2020 and not seriously until 2021.
3. Natural talent: this is what we don't know about Sedjati, since he never appeared in a race until he was 22. Rudisha, Brazier, and Korir all flashed immense talent at young ages. ???
4. Physique: Sedjati is built like El Guerrouj, which means he has a ton of muscle on a supremely slender frame. Strike two.
Morocco, Algeria and Kenya didn't get only successful runners...
See lately one of them was crowned "Spermiler of all times" in your own home.
You must have put something into Google translate that didn't come up right, because "Spermiler of all times" is absolute gibberish.
Regardless, pretty much every person favored to win gold gets accused of doping on LetsRun. Take it as a compliment that people are putting Sedjati as the clear favorite to win gold in the 800 right now.
No, he's right. I'm the Sperm Miler Of All Time in the US. I tried being humble and lowkey about it, but I figured word would get out.
There are four factors for me that would indicate doping:
1. Country of origin: sorry, but Russia, Algeria, Morocco, and oil states don't get the benefit of the doubt here. Sedjati is from Algeria. Strike one.
2. Progression: did the runner make a sudden leap at an age that doesn't make sense? Actually nothing surprising in Sedjati's progression, especially knowing the fact that he didn't start running until 2020 and not seriously until 2021.
3. Natural talent: this is what we don't know about Sedjati, since he never appeared in a race until he was 22. Rudisha, Brazier, and Korir all flashed immense talent at young ages. ???
4. Physique: Sedjati is built like El Guerrouj, which means he has a ton of muscle on a supremely slender frame. Strike two.
5. Coach. See Brazier under Salazar.
Funny that TL thinks that Brazier is not suspect.
Because he's not? He broke 1:44 at 19 years old, made the Worlds team at 20, was injured at 21 when he joined said suspicious coach, won Worlds at 22, would have won the Olympics at 23, and has basically been injured continuously from 24-27. PEDs typically help a runner avoid injury or are used in coming back from one. The fact that he got injured and is just basically done is pretty much my proof that he's not using them.
It’s gonna shock you, but there have been 4 athletes who averaged 12.7x for the entire 800m race. And the most recent of the 4 ran his world record 12 years ago. So maybe Sedjati is just a historically pretty good 800m runner. If your baseline for a shocking 800m race is beating Bryce Hoppel when he throws up a bit of a stinker*
*in LA he closed in 26.2 to run 1:43.6, today more like 27 to run 1:44.2
To be clear don’t know if he’s doping but 2018 Korir and 2019 Brazier were more impressive.
To me, it's not strictly about the time over the last 100m, whether he ran even and everyone else was going backwards, or whatever else.
There's just a visual je ne sais quois you can observe in these types of guys. I knew it the moment I saw Amos and I knew it the moment I saw Sedjati.