But what was Semenya's "sex at birth"? Biologically, Semenya was male at birth, but no one knew it at the time. Legally, Semenya was female at birth.
In tricky situations like Semenya, "sex at birth" doesn't solve the problem.
Seems like you answered your question.
Only normal people care about objective reality. It is stupid to even entertain Leftists and their redefinitions, because their overarching value is power accumulation, which is fundamentally opposed to normal people who care about things like morality and objectivity.
If [insert appeal to authority] says x is true, and x supports the elimination of objective reality or the harm of normal people, then Leftist says that [authority] is right.
Of course the situation is more complicated. I am talking about high school sports because higher levels have rules and testing protocols regarding transgender athletes. High schools cannot afford testing but my proposal can be implemented at an existing point in the athlete eligibility process. Would a DSD individual or someone with internal testes make it undetected? Yes. But those people are extremely rare.
The Oregon issue is troubling because all one must do is declare themselves transgender and then compete as their preferred identity for the duration of the season. No evidence of counseling, hormone suppression, or gender affirming surgery required by the OSAA. What stops a second rate boys cross country team from declaring themselves women to win a state title? Nothing!
THIS is the courage that is needed to sort things out. Make a mockery of it with 5-7 normal boys taking the crown, and see how fast rules change when it isn't isolated freaks who are taking the spots.
This literally only was on one occurrence in the sport of track and field (Caster S.), and it was solved by a testosterone rule. Which should be a rule in all sports, if the case of dual genitalia occurs, so that way - again. We can protect women's sport.
Stanisława Walasiewicz, Stella Walsh when she became American, won the 100 meter at the 1932 Olympics in Los Angeles. After being shot during a holdup in Cleveland, Ohio on the 4th of December 1980, the coroner revealed that Stella had an abnormal chromosome configuration resulting in XY gonadal dysgenesis and stated, futhermore, Stella was "socially, culturally and legally" (sic) a woman.
I'll bump this to the current last page. I am not for boys competing as girls. The nuance must be addressed, though. This topic is not new.
It would just solve all of these gender in sport problems and protect women's sport.
discus.
Except intersex people exist. And people who appear to be female at birth, but also have male genitalia. So it never really was that ‘simple,’ and literally wouldn’t solve any of the problems because your solution is to pretend they don’t exist.
Intersex people are either genotypic male or female. Sex isn't based on your genitalia (those are secondary sex characteristics), it's based on genes, specifically the presence or lack thereof the SRY (sex-determining region y) gene.
Stanisława Walasiewicz, Stella Walsh when she became American, won the 100 meter at the 1932 Olympics in Los Angeles. After being shot during a holdup in Cleveland, Ohio on the 4th of December 1980, the coroner revealed that Stella had an abnormal chromosome configuration resulting in XY gonadal dysgenesis and stated, futhermore, Stella was "socially, culturally and legally" (sic) a woman.
I'll bump this to the current last page. I am not for boys competing as girls. The nuance must be addressed, though. This topic is not new.
People with XY gonadal dysgenesis (aka swyer syndrome) are genetically male.
Sounds like people are asking for athletes to submit a birth certificate and documentation of a physical in order to compete.
I don’t want males competing against females either, but that sounds like an onerous process.
I’d be fine with an appeals process. Pick a gender and race as that. If a coach suspects a female competitor as being male, file a formal appeal. Then have the athlete supply the required documentation subject to disqualification.
It’s fine for people to say how they identify themselves as and how they wish to be viewed, as long as it doesn’t give them an unfair advantage in a sport which was designed to provide equity in the first place.
So you support things like this? What would be the basis for a coach's suspicion? That the athlete does not look feminine enough?
Run according to birth certificate. Caster competes as a woman. Genetic advantages must be allowed, otherwise tall high jumpers and fast genes must also be disqualified.
Too much to ask for the Dems and those that support that cause.
In some weird world they are both feminist AND for men competing against women. (I still dont understand you square that circle in your brain, but then these are people that are gay and for Hamas.)
YESSSSSS.... we just need MOOOORREEE of this.. I want to see nothing but boys/men in the finals of the state meet. I want a 100% boys 4x4 racing against HS girls. I want to witness pure unadulterated carnage on the track!
Make a mockery of this BS.. expose it for the garbage that it is. Sometimes the only way to fight against absurdity is with more absurdity.
That’s what Nikki Hiltz does, but people still get upset.
That's not WHY people get annoyed by her though. We just don't think her "they/them" charade is legit, inasmuch as it isn't ever legit.
Oh, I see, so it's not actually about under what banner she competes. It's about your discomfort and you needing to impose your value system on her.
See, I had thought it was about the former, because that's what everyone keeps talking about! But it turns out that it's not. I'm so very, very, very surprised.
Too much to ask for the Dems and those that support that cause.
In some weird world they are both feminist AND for men competing against women. (I still dont understand you square that circle in your brain, but then these are people that are gay and for Hamas.)
This is such a dumb, false equivalence.
Most people on the left fundamentally agree with you. I can only speak for myself, but I would say that:
1. It's slightly more complicated than you present it to be, not that it should be used an excuse to do nothing.
2. It's extremely difficult to have a reasonable discussion about it when so many people who are arguing from the right are actually arguing about their discomfort on a social level while presenting it and playing dumb as it they're arguing it on a fairness level.
I think transgender girls and women shouldn't compete on the same terms. Fundamentally, I agree! I just think it's disgusting and very, very telling how many of you can't stop there -- you also have to bully children, you also have to shame them and tell them that they're evil and wrong.
Stanisława Walasiewicz, Stella Walsh when she became American, won the 100 meter at the 1932 Olympics in Los Angeles. After being shot during a holdup in Cleveland, Ohio on the 4th of December 1980, the coroner revealed that Stella had an abnormal chromosome configuration resulting in XY gonadal dysgenesis and stated, futhermore, Stella was "socially, culturally and legally" (sic) a woman.
I'll bump this to the current last page. I am not for boys competing as girls. The nuance must be addressed, though. This topic is not new.
My understanding, based on this post from those on the right, is that you're a Marxist who wants to undermine Western hegemony. Or something.
It's important to remember that there's no nuance allowed. The only thing that matters is that these children are made to feel ashamed and subject to abuse from adults.
Except intersex people exist. And people who appear to be female at birth, but also have male genitalia. So it never really was that ‘simple,’ and literally wouldn’t solve any of the problems because your solution is to pretend they don’t exist.
What a bunch of nonsense.
The fact that there are a small number of individuals whose sex is not easily determined in no way negates the notion that things would be fairer, especially to people born female, if we simply used sex at birth as the determinant to create two competitive divisions rather than the social construct, gender.
Please take your fog elsewhere.
This is shallow , simplistic thinking
With the dramatic increase in Intersex DSD athletes, it was only a matter of time before every women's event was going to be won by a DSD male. There were already DSD runners in events like 200m, 400m, 800m, 1500m, 3000m SC .......................
I always marvel at the fact that right wingers want simple solutions for everything yet nothing in life is simple. Its like right wingers brains are incapable of processing the fact that life is complicated and there aren't hard and fast rules that work in every scenario.
Run according to birth certificate. Caster competes as a woman. Genetic advantages must be allowed, otherwise tall high jumpers and fast genes must also be disqualified.
Hypocrites, tell me why I'm wrong.
So then parents of a boy bribe a doctor in a 3rd world country to put "female" on the birth certificate? Or someone checked the wrong box on a birth certificate and accidentally put female instead of male?
"Run according to birth certificate" isn't the solution that you imagine it is.
Run according to birth certificate. Caster competes as a woman. Genetic advantages must be allowed, otherwise tall high jumpers and fast genes must also be disqualified.
Hypocrites, tell me why I'm wrong.
So then parents of a boy bribe a doctor in a 3rd world country to put "female" on the birth certificate? Or someone checked the wrong box on a birth certificate and accidentally put female instead of male?
"Run according to birth certificate" isn't the solution that you imagine it is.
You're right that "compete according to birth certificate" isn't the solution.
But it's important to point out that doctors don't fill out birth certificate applications, especially not in the less developed world. Parents (usually mothers) or legal guardians customarily do.
However, in some countries where home births are the norm and the rates of birth registration by mothers/parents has traditionally been very low, other people outside the family - school teachers and administrators, government social workers - can also register births and apply for birth certificates for minors. This is the case in Namibia, where it's long been the case that 50% of kids start school without their births being registered and thus without birth certificates.
None of the XY DSD athletes from sub-Saharan Africa whose participation in women's sports has been such a thorny isssue in the 21st century appear to have gotten birth certificates as children. Caster Semenya's first birth certificate was issued in April 2007 when Semenya was 16. By then, Semenya - who grew up playing on boys' sports teams, wearing a boys' school uniform and wanting to have nothing to do with girls - had given up playing on a teenage boys' soccer team and had switched to running against girls.
The South African government that issued Semenya's first birth certificate saying Semenya is female in 2007 was riddled with corruption. It was also full of officials who had plenty of incentive to fudge the truth about the teenager many bigwigs in South Africa already saw as the nation's surefire ticket to sports gold and glory on the world stage.
This post was edited 6 minutes after it was posted.
All high school kids have to get a physical to compete in school sports. As part of that physical by the child’s doctor, genitalia needs to be noted. If you possess a penis and testes, then you have to compete as a male - full stop.
No testing or requirements for suppression therapies or counseling. The athlete’s feelings do not matter. If d*** and b**** are present, then you only enter boys events. No more simple declarations about feeling like a woman to compete as one. A simple exam conducted by the medical professional as part of the existing sports physical.
In the USA, kids usually have to get a medical checkup with a licensed health care provider that involves a thorough physical exam either annually or every other year in order to attend school and play school sports. This is true in lower school, middle school and high school.
It's especially important for kids in lower school and middle school to get regular health checkups that involve a full physical from a licensed health care professional knowledgable about child development because of how early puberty of adolescence starts, especially for girls.
Most girls start breast development at 8-10 and start ovulating and menstruating two years later. Lots of girls in 5th and 6th grade have started having periods already.
Teachers, school staff and coaches need to know if the kids in their charge are male or female in order to provide them with proper information, assistance and safeguarding.
For example, if a LS, MS or HS teacher, staffer or coach sees that a male student has a big splotch of blood on the crotch or seat of his trousers, gym uniform or track shorts, that's a medical emergency and he needs to be taken to a doctor immediately. If the same thing happens to a female student, it's "business as usual" - all she probably needs is a menstrual pad or tampon and a trip to the restoom or locker room to get cleaned up and change or rinse out her clothes.
