But to average joe, ground feel is weird, unnatural, even painful.
Yep, this is the weirdest thing to come out the whole supershoe fad. Redditors flinch at the thought of feeling anything other than marshmallows when running. It's pathetic.
Don't act like it's just reddit. Letsrunners hate on minimalist shoes so much and think the cushioned trainers are the reason every college kid can run 13:40 now. (Very obviously the spikes)
Sooo, after an intense 24h research period, I just bought a pair of Vivobarefoot Primus Knit Lite from Revivo as they were pretty cheap so I figured give them a try. I didn't know this forum was a US based one when I wrote my first post, but you have some interesting shoes over there. Many can be found both in US and Europe, but I've looked into Vivobarefoot, Freet, Lenko, Xero, Altra, Allbirds, Icebug (local for me), Nnormal, Brooks and so on... In addition, the sustainability played a big part in my decision as well and that I don't want to buy stuff made in China. Just like Kvothe pointed out from the start, there's very few that actually make shoes in the mid segment of sole thickness and drop. But when looking at those, I thought, why not just test a real barefoot shoe. So now I will and will probably think it's hard for the typical tarmac runs I usually do. But then I'm trying to convince myself that I will run more trail with the barefoot instead, which I acually enjoy more, but I have to run on tarmac before I come to the muddy forest trails. Let's see how it all turns out.
Vivo is a great company! And a lot of their shoes look pretty cool too. I would strongly advise that you gradually work into doing your runs in the Primus. It's one thing to go from one lightweight road shoe with cushion to a zero drop shoe with cushion, but shoes like these that are just an outsole with no foam are unforgiving even on trails when you first start. Best way to adjust is to do a lot of walking in them before running. Super comfortable for this too!
Brooks Hyperion Tempo (not the Elite, which is their carbon fibre version) are pretty much an old school style racing flat, and Brooks themselves are one of the most eco friendly shoe companies out there I believe, so should also tick the low carbon footprint box.
I really like Hyperion Tempo, but it certainly isn't a racing flat. It has a modern superfoam midsole and 31 mm heel stack.
Topo is great, I really enjoy running in the Altra Rivera. I also have a few pairs of xero shoes and they are great. I only use them for shorter runs or strides as they can really beat up the legs
Yes so I thought as well. Thanks for the warning, will take it slow. But yesterday I actually bought a pair from Allbirds, dasher 2, as well for road as well. Will start walking with the Vivo’s and do some rocky trials, and stsrtung slowly on the road. But for the fat burning excercise runs I will try the Allbirds. Will be interesting to see where I am (distance wise) and what I prefer after summer.
Yes so I thought as well. Thanks for the warning, will take it slow. But yesterday I actually bought a pair from Allbirds, dasher 2, as well for road as well. Will start walking with the Vivo’s and do some rocky trials, and stsrtung slowly on the road. But for the fat burning excercise runs I will try the Allbirds. Will be interesting to see where I am (distance wise) and what I prefer after summer.
Vivo barefoot is top! I actually started to run trails in the hiking shoes, they're bit more stiff sole but great grip, you need that with the rocks and when it gets slippery.
I'm glad this thread keeps getting bumped, but people keep suggesting super low stack shoes like vivo, super heavy shoes like the allbirds shoes that are over 10 oz, and zero drop shoes like altra.
I think this proves the point - there is a hole in the market. If I made decisions at a shoe manufacturer, I would put a product in that would monopolize this empty market share. Just get a shoe designer to study the adizero rocket and make something similar.
So what have been the best shoes that have fit this niche for people previously?
For me the Inov8 RoadX 233 and the salming speed 3 have probably been the best ive run in
I've spent quite a lot of time in various incarnations of the Asics Sortie Magic. They're not sold in US running shops but I've gotten some freebies and have found them on the internet. I've like the Mizuno Wave Eikeden a lot. The New Balance Hanzo worked for me but weren't available for all that long. The adidas Takumi Sen, the earlier versions, work pretty well but they're a little stiff for my taste. The Saucony Killkenny has also worked very well for me. Years ago when Camille Heron was posting here and before she got her shoe deal she frequently mentioned using it often. It's the only one I've named here that's still on the market.
So what have been the best shoes that have fit this niche for people previously?
For me the Inov8 RoadX 233 and the salming speed 3 have probably been the best ive run in
Adizero rocket, new balance 1400, new balance 1500, new balance 1600, nike streak, nike streak lt, nike streak xc, brooks t3-7, adizero hagio, adizero adios (pre light strike and boost), adizero sub 2, mizuno had a shoe here that I forget the name of, puma faas 250, skechers go meb speed, reebok run fast, reebok run fast pro london, asics gel magic racer, asics hyperspeed (before it disappeared from market and got rebranded as a high stack shoe), fila kenya racer, nike speed racer, nike speed rival, asics ds racer
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These are just the ones I remember or have run in. On old threads you can find about as many other shoes as I've listed also listed. Like I say, there is a huge hole in the market where these shoes used to exist.
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That inov8 shoe looks interesting, I never tried them, but I guess they are already discontinued. I have ran in the salming speeds and races. They have way too much room in the toebox for me.
So what have been the best shoes that have fit this niche for people previously?
For me the Inov8 RoadX 233 and the salming speed 3 have probably been the best ive run in
I've spent quite a lot of time in various incarnations of the Asics Sortie Magic. They're not sold in US running shops but I've gotten some freebies and have found them on the internet. I've like the Mizuno Wave Eikeden a lot. The New Balance Hanzo worked for me but weren't available for all that long. The adidas Takumi Sen, the earlier versions, work pretty well but they're a little stiff for my taste. The Saucony Killkenny has also worked very well for me. Years ago when Camille Heron was posting here and before she got her shoe deal she frequently mentioned using it often. It's the only one I've named here that's still on the market.
Sortie Magic seem great. Unfortunately, they are made with Japanese sizing, which goes from 10 to 11, skipping my size 10.5. A casual shoe fitting a bit off is ok, but a running shoe being a bit too tight or loose is injury waiting to happen. Camile Heron ran in the brooks t series I believe, but maybe that was after landing a shoe deal.
I agree, some great suggestions here, but some are missing the point.
There really isn't a minimal flat, that isn't an XC racing shoe, that has any meanigful cushion.
I have been running in Xero Trail shoes for a few years now. I've run solely on soft forest trails, so these work great.
As others have said, any running on harder surfaces and you feel beat up.
I used to love the NB road minimus, and see they have sort of returned . . . but don't look the same. (still might try a pair).
I am going to try the zero drop Topos with the 14 mm stack . . . that is like the old NB road minimus, which were great.
May try some spikeless XC flats as well to compare.
What do you and other xero or xc flat runners race road races in - say for distances half marathon to marathon? I can't imagine going from a shoe like that to something with 2 cm or more higher stack height. It would feel alien making a big jump like that.
That's too bad about Sortie sizing. Maybe you should file down some toes. I'm pretty sure you're right about Camille Heron and shoe deals and the Killkenny (which was named for the Irish beer, another plus). She stopped running in them, or at least talking about how much she liked them, when she got her first shoe deal, and I think you're right that Brooks gave her the first one. It's kind of surprising to me that Saucony didn't jump to do a deal with her.
I agree, some great suggestions here, but some are missing the point.
There really isn't a minimal flat, that isn't an XC racing shoe, that has any meanigful cushion.
I have been running in Xero Trail shoes for a few years now. I've run solely on soft forest trails, so these work great.
As others have said, any running on harder surfaces and you feel beat up.
I used to love the NB road minimus, and see they have sort of returned . . . but don't look the same. (still might try a pair).
I am going to try the zero drop Topos with the 14 mm stack . . . that is like the old NB road minimus, which were great.
May try some spikeless XC flats as well to compare.
What do you and other xero or xc flat runners race road races in - say for distances half marathon to marathon? I can't imagine going from a shoe like that to something with 2 cm or more higher stack height. It would feel alien making a big jump like that.
I did all of my competitive racing before the super shoe era . . . I used to race in the original adidas zero pro and the original asics piranha. I even used a Puma H-street style spikeless track flat for a while.
I mainly raced 5k to half though, so can't really comment on the marathon.
After a few years of not road racing, I decided to try a road 10k with the vaporfly 2's . . . and holy crap did I bounce through that race much faster than I had ever imagined at that point in my running career.
Yes, they feel very weird to a minimalist, but I believe minimalist runners might benefit the most from super shoes, given the extra range of motion and muscular development our lower leg muscles already have.
If you are used to running on pavement in very minimal shoes, the super shoes will eliminate any residual pain you might have felt at faster paces in minimal racing flats.
This more than makes up for the weird feeling of the huge stack heighth. Most minimalist runners land on the ball of their feet (I do, but I know HRE has mentioned he doesn't), and this translates naturally to the super shoe, especially the stiffer VF2.
What do you and other xero or xc flat runners race road races in - say for distances half marathon to marathon? I can't imagine going from a shoe like that to something with 2 cm or more higher stack height. It would feel alien making a big jump like that.
I did all of my competitive racing before the super shoe era . . . I used to race in the original adidas zero pro and the original asics piranha. I even used a Puma H-street style spikeless track flat for a while.
I mainly raced 5k to half though, so can't really comment on the marathon.
After a few years of not road racing, I decided to try a road 10k with the vaporfly 2's . . . and holy crap did I bounce through that race much faster than I had ever imagined at that point in my running career.
Yes, they feel very weird to a minimalist, but I believe minimalist runners might benefit the most from super shoes, given the extra range of motion and muscular development our lower leg muscles already have.
If you are used to running on pavement in very minimal shoes, the super shoes will eliminate any residual pain you might have felt at faster paces in minimal racing flats.
This more than makes up for the weird feeling of the huge stack heighth. Most minimalist runners land on the ball of their feet (I do, but I know HRE has mentioned he doesn't), and this translates naturally to the super shoe, especially the stiffer VF2.
I agree with you. The first time I wore super shoes, I felt like I had been transported back to when I was running in minimalist shoes. Having very strong feet and lower legs gives you a huge efficiency advantage. Running in supershoes reminded me of that advantage... but with supershoes you don't feel completely destroyed after a long hard run. I was never able to recover well after a 10k race in traditional running shoes. With supershoes, a 10k feels much more like a 5k on the legs, a couple of days later.
This thread has me thinking about training more runs in minimalist shoes and continuing to race in supershoes.