I find this thread so interesting because it goes in waves. First page: this workout is extreme and ridiculous; second page: actually it's reasonable for a marathoner; third page: BTC doesn't have marathoners, and it's probably a joke. Several posts in a row arguing each point, each with mostly upvotes. I actually think we got it right in the end: it is a tough, but plausible workout for marathoners, but probably not something mid-distance guys would ever do. But it's interesting to see the evolution.
realityyy wrote:
Because it's not. That's just a fact. Also why the West is so bad at the marathon. Many of the worlds best marathoners are doing continuous work near that same volume. If you are running 120 + miles a week and have progressed proper that's not an illogical workout. 20 miles worth of work at marathon intensity WITH BREAKS is far less dangerous than some of the real serious high intensity work that they and many other groups do. Especially for the right type of athlete. People will think thats crazy but then not bat an eye at say 8 x 200m "all out" - (far more dangerous workout for almost anyone). But I won't expect people to agree with me because most of you are not smart.
Also, this quoted post stood out to me. Look at it: it's hostile, has a strong opinion that contradicts most of the prior posts, and calls "most of" us out as "not smart". It's not exactly warm and fuzzy. Yet it has 77 upvotes to only 8 downvotes because the post is well-reasoned and relevant. Despite the tone, it added something to the thread.
I'm pointing this out to say that there is a big difference between posts like this and posters who post cynical or irrelevant opinions with no reasoning, attack individual posters, and derail the thread by replying to every single poster who disagrees ad nauseam. Those posts are a scourge, while this one, despite the disagreeable tone, is actually a decent post which imo deserves the upvotes. And so this is evidence that there is a real difference between a disagreeable post and a garbage one, and we know it when we see it.
I find this thread so interesting because it goes in waves. First page: this workout is extreme and ridiculous; second page: actually it's reasonable for a marathoner; third page: BTC doesn't have marathoners, and it's probably a joke. Several posts in a row arguing each point, each with mostly upvotes. I actually think we got it right in the end: it is a tough, but plausible workout for marathoners, but probably not something mid-distance guys would ever do. But it's interesting to see the evolution.
realityyy wrote:
Because it's not. That's just a fact. Also why the West is so bad at the marathon. Many of the worlds best marathoners are doing continuous work near that same volume. If you are running 120 + miles a week and have progressed proper that's not an illogical workout. 20 miles worth of work at marathon intensity WITH BREAKS is far less dangerous than some of the real serious high intensity work that they and many other groups do. Especially for the right type of athlete. People will think thats crazy but then not bat an eye at say 8 x 200m "all out" - (far more dangerous workout for almost anyone). But I won't expect people to agree with me because most of you are not smart.
Also, this quoted post stood out to me. Look at it: it's hostile, has a strong opinion that contradicts most of the prior posts, and calls "most of" us out as "not smart". It's not exactly warm and fuzzy. Yet it has 77 upvotes to only 8 downvotes because the post is well-reasoned and relevant. Despite the tone, it added something to the thread.
I'm pointing this out to say that there is a big difference between posts like this and posters who post cynical or irrelevant opinions with no reasoning, attack individual posters, and derail the thread by replying to every single poster who disagrees ad nauseam. Those posts are a scourge, while this one, despite the disagreeable tone, is actually a decent post which imo deserves the upvotes. And so this is evidence that there is a real difference between a disagreeable post and a garbage one, and we know it when we see it.
The content of the post is agreeable, a bit harsh but ok, unfortunately, the OP didn't clarify what event it pertains to. For a marathoner it seems applicable, for middle distance runners it's too much volume.
Did they specify the pace on these - if it was Aerobic/Ventilation Threshold (85-88% of Max HR) then it's a doable (although extreme) workout for a high mileage elite marathoner.
It's less about whether it's "doable" it's more what is the purpose of this. Sure, I have done 30+k continuous @ ~marathon pace when I was training for a marathon. Big, but not too crazy. Splitting it into kms makes it a bit easier aerobically but the physical load is the same, so don't think the injury risk is any less.
IMHO if you're at the point of doing something so high volume with low rest you're likely better off just doing it continuously, or doing fewer but doing them faster. Taken to an extreme, you could do 35 km in 400s with very short rest... but why? That's the question you have to ask with any workout.
The answer depends what you're training for. If you're training for a marathon, longer/continuous is more specific and this workout isn't all that useful. Better off doing longer continuous MP intervals, or if it's supposed to be an easier workout early in the build or as a spin session doing less volume with this kind of thing makes sense.
If you're training for something shorter but want to develop your aerobic fitness gernerally this kind of workout can be useful so that you go a bit faster, but at a certain point the volume is so high that the rest doesn't really improve the pace much so it might as well be continuous unless it's to make it psychologically easier for mid-distance athletes. However 35x1km sounds awful no matter how you slice that so doubt that's the rationale here lol. That kind of rationale is more like instead of getting 800 runners to do a continuous 20' tempo, you get them to do km or mile repeats with very short rest to break it up mentally so they don't sandbag it too much.
Galloway, before he sold out completely, suggested up to 15 x 1 mile with one minute recovery at half marathon pace. (I may not have the specifics exactly right, but it was something like this.)
I tried 10 x 1 mile with a minute rest in 6 mins each. (Aiming for a 2:40 marathon at the time ... which was pre-super shoes ... so we can adjust it to 2:17 these days :-)
Got through the workout ok, but at the end I thought: Might as well have done a 10 miler at MP.
I find this thread so interesting because it goes in waves. First page: this workout is extreme and ridiculous; second page: actually it's reasonable for a marathoner; third page: BTC doesn't have marathoners, and it's probably a joke. Several posts in a row arguing each point, each with mostly upvotes. I actually think we got it right in the end: it is a tough, but plausible workout for marathoners, but probably not something mid-distance guys would ever do. But it's interesting to see the evolution.
Also, this quoted post stood out to me. Look at it: it's hostile, has a strong opinion that contradicts most of the prior posts, and calls "most of" us out as "not smart". It's not exactly warm and fuzzy. Yet it has 77 upvotes to only 8 downvotes because the post is well-reasoned and relevant. Despite the tone, it added something to the thread.
I'm pointing this out to say that there is a big difference between posts like this and posters who post cynical or irrelevant opinions with no reasoning, attack individual posters, and derail the thread by replying to every single poster who disagrees ad nauseam. Those posts are a scourge, while this one, despite the disagreeable tone, is actually a decent post which imo deserves the upvotes. And so this is evidence that there is a real difference between a disagreeable post and a garbage one, and we know it when we see it.
The content of the post is agreeable, a bit harsh but ok, unfortunately, the OP didn't clarify what event it pertains to. For a marathoner it seems applicable, for middle distance runners it's too much volume.
I am the OP and i didn't have to clarify the event when i said its BTC. They have no relevant marathoners so by default it could only be a track workout. It's IMPLIED in the title
I find this thread so interesting because it goes in waves. First page: this workout is extreme and ridiculous; second page: actually it's reasonable for a marathoner; third page: BTC doesn't have marathoners, and it's probably a joke. Several posts in a row arguing each point, each with mostly upvotes. I actually think we got it right in the end: it is a tough, but plausible workout for marathoners, but probably not something mid-distance guys would ever do. But it's interesting to see the evolution.
realityyy wrote:
Because it's not. That's just a fact. Also why the West is so bad at the marathon. Many of the worlds best marathoners are doing continuous work near that same volume. If you are running 120 + miles a week and have progressed proper that's not an illogical workout. 20 miles worth of work at marathon intensity WITH BREAKS is far less dangerous than some of the real serious high intensity work that they and many other groups do. Especially for the right type of athlete. People will think thats crazy but then not bat an eye at say 8 x 200m "all out" - (far more dangerous workout for almost anyone). But I won't expect people to agree with me because most of you are not smart.
Also, this quoted post stood out to me. Look at it: it's hostile, has a strong opinion that contradicts most of the prior posts, and calls "most of" us out as "not smart". It's not exactly warm and fuzzy. Yet it has 77 upvotes to only 8 downvotes because the post is well-reasoned and relevant. Despite the tone, it added something to the thread.
I'm pointing this out to say that there is a big difference between posts like this and posters who post cynical or irrelevant opinions with no reasoning, attack individual posters, and derail the thread by replying to every single poster who disagrees ad nauseam. Those posts are a scourge, while this one, despite the disagreeable tone, is actually a decent post which imo deserves the upvotes. And so this is evidence that there is a real difference between a disagreeable post and a garbage one, and we know it when we see it.
I am absolutely a dick. Won't pretend to not be. I've also been doing this for awhile, it's on of very few things I'm okay at. We need a lot more straight to the point in 2023.
The athletes I have coached over the years care a lot about their running. I think this is common in our sport? As coaches, we have the absolute obligation to at least be "decent" at what we do.
Yet everywhere I look I see illogical sessions and a severe lack in the understanding of development. I'm watching coaches I've known for over a decade who ran successful NCAA programs alter their training because of whatever FAD is in at the moment. It's insane. Critical Velocity this, double threshold that.
There are very few sports where coaching matters as much as it does in our sport. "We" can absolutely ruin an athlete.
I would say 75% of the athletes I coach post-collegiately have to essentially do a complete and full reset because of how absolutely pathetic their NCAA experience was.
I get it - college coaches put food on their table based off success. But that doesn't mean I have to be nice or happy about it.
I have several athletes running 100 + miles a week. We do loads of marathon work (yes even the non marathoners) . Why ? Because you're coaching human beings - not an event.
Whether Bowerman thing was a joke or not I don't care. I just remembered this thread tbh. Made up...real..."10k runners"..."marathoners"...doesn't matter. The fact that there's enough running nerds on letsrun to look at that workout and think it's severe is crazy.
I am exceptionally grateful to have gotten the pleasure to work with many trials types. You can downvote me all I want but I've spend the time developing average college types into trails types. I would find it unlikely that anyone else that has done the same would argue with me about that workout.
Did they specify the pace on these - if it was Aerobic/Ventilation Threshold (85-88% of Max HR) then it's a doable (although extreme) workout for a high mileage elite marathoner.
It's less about whether it's "doable" it's more what is the purpose of this. Sure, I have done 30+k continuous @ ~marathon pace when I was training for a marathon. Big, but not too crazy. Splitting it into kms makes it a bit easier aerobically but the physical load is the same, so don't think the injury risk is any less.
IMHO if you're at the point of doing something so high volume with low rest you're likely better off just doing it continuously, or doing fewer but doing them faster. Taken to an extreme, you could do 35 km in 400s with very short rest... but why? That's the question you have to ask with any workout.
The answer depends what you're training for. If you're training for a marathon, longer/continuous is more specific and this workout isn't all that useful. Better off doing longer continuous MP intervals, or if it's supposed to be an easier workout early in the build or as a spin session doing less volume with this kind of thing makes sense.
If you're training for something shorter but want to develop your aerobic fitness gernerally this kind of workout can be useful so that you go a bit faster, but at a certain point the volume is so high that the rest doesn't really improve the pace much so it might as well be continuous unless it's to make it psychologically easier for mid-distance athletes. However 35x1km sounds awful no matter how you slice that so doubt that's the rationale here lol. That kind of rationale is more like instead of getting 800 runners to do a continuous 20' tempo, you get them to do km or mile repeats with very short rest to break it up mentally so they don't sandbag it too much.