Did they not put heart monitors on DL racers or something that gave live readouts during the race? It would be interesting to put them on everyone for say a 10,000 and see how heart rate correlated to finish place. For example did leaders work harder to run faster than the trailers.
The more thoroughly trained and fit people finishing up front have the advantage of acclimated muscles, cardio, and the psychological familiarity with levels of “discomfort and effort.” The other thing that comes to mind is that they weren’t out there as long. Those poor folks were ho come lumbering in after four plus hours are done in!
The more thoroughly trained and fit people finishing up front have the advantage of acclimated muscles, cardio, and the psychological familiarity with levels of “discomfort and effort.” The other thing that comes to mind is that they weren’t out there as long. Those poor folks were ho come lumbering in after four plus hours are done in!
But that's only talent. Why wouldn't a mid packer be just as thoroughly trained and fit, just not as fast? Wouldn't both be pushing themselves just as hard as the other?
The more thoroughly trained and fit people finishing up front have the advantage of acclimated muscles, cardio, and the psychological familiarity with levels of “discomfort and effort.” The other thing that comes to mind is that they weren’t out there as long. Those poor folks were ho come lumbering in after four plus hours are done in!
But that's only talent. Why wouldn't a mid packer be just as thoroughly trained and fit, just not as fast? Wouldn't both be pushing themselves just as hard as the other?
Yes. Good point. I sort of shifted focus to the "four plus"hour ones who were not in such good condition, as I said. I was one of the 2:40+ types who did train hard, and was not that racked up at the finish. Ran two+ mis home after one marathon in Napa w/only a couple blisters.
I tried longer running but when I ran it hurt like hell and the finish couldn't come fast enough. Which is why I went to shorter races. I wonder if elite pros get that same feeling or is it just a matter of they tolerate pain better and it doesn't bother them.
Elites don't feel pain, they feel discomfort.
levels.
the fitter your are, the less pain and faster the recovery.
it is the average guy that feels the most pain by far.
in this way the average guy is superior, to go though that pain and keep doing.
The average human runs a mile in gym class and says it hurts, but ultimately, they aren't conditioned enough to even get to a point where they can feel pain. What happens is they get out hard and their body nearly immediately fails to get the oxygen where it needs to be, and their start gasping, and then their body forces them to slow down. Being fit is not having that limiter of the lungs. Being fit means 90% of running is far easier and more comfortable. But that last 10% is uncomfortable to a level that is hard to understand, and it lasts far longer.
However, even an 8 minute miler can be in the best condition they possibly could but just lack the talent. Do they hurt at the end of a mile the same way as say, Nuguse at the end of a 3:43?
The 'talent' required to be faster than 8 minutes in mile is not the same kind as 'talent' which is needed to break 4 minutes. People who run 8 minute miles as best effort in their prime are somewhat similar to older runners in their 70s or 80s: injury-prone, brittle bones, muscle atrophy, long time to recover, etc. This prevents them from both running decent mileage in training and producing higher power output when racing. The way they feel is more likely to be similar to unexperienced runners with lower aerobic capacity shutting everything down long before anything else. When they really hurt in the race, that's terrible because this often means something in their body is actually breaking.
Kiptum sure didn't look like he was hurting after yesterday's race. very focused and grimacing last 5k but that was pushing away pain. Then at the end he jumped!!!!! Adrenaline? I think the brain filters pain signals a little differently in the elite, therefore they can train and perform at maximum levels. perhaps the insula in the brain is a site for further research.
You would know this answer is obvious if you've ever been fit then very unfit and tried training and racing in both conditions. Elites are fit. When you're fit you can go out and do a 6-8 mile "easy" run and it's a breeze. When you're out of shape, it's a struggle and it's "painful" in the sense that your body is asking you to stop every step of the way. Elite runners are fit and talented so they are not struggling just to do the basic motions. They have to give an all-out effort to get to that level of discomfort.
I tried longer running but when I ran it hurt like hell and the finish couldn't come fast enough. Which is why I went to shorter races. I wonder if elite pros get that same feeling or is it just a matter of they tolerate pain better and it doesn't bother them.
This is America. We are in a country that promotes, shorter, easier, less work. We promote electric bikes, allowing the rider to say they are riding a bike, while barely pedaling. We are the country that came out
with the energy-return running shoes. Talk to the Ethiopian and Kenyan runners. Most of them look forward to "getting back" to their home country and training. Because living here can make someone soft compared to their way of life.
You would know this answer is obvious if you've ever been fit then very unfit and tried training and racing in both conditions. Elites are fit. When you're fit you can go out and do a 6-8 mile "easy" run and it's a breeze. When you're out of shape, it's a struggle and it's "painful" in the sense that your body is asking you to stop every step of the way. Elite runners are fit and talented so they are not struggling just to do the basic motions. They have to give an all-out effort to get to that level of discomfort.
Everyone trains (or should train) to be their best. I don't think it matters what level you're at, everyone hurts. My road races in my 40's felt exactly like my races during my high school and college races, only slower.
I never ran 'elite pro' times, meaning I never made a ton of money from running. But I ran fast enough to be in the elite fields marathon majors and US championships and stuff. From my perspective the races felt the same my entire life, it's just that the pace you were able to run for that same discomfort got faster over time. If the pace does not feel hard in the later stages of a race, you are not running hard enough. A 6 minute mile when you were younger felt pretty challenging, and feels what a 5 minute mile later on in life, and then you keep getting faster to where a 4:45 mile feels like a 5 minute mile used to.
I never ran 'elite pro' times, meaning I never made a ton of money from running. But I ran fast enough to be in the elite fields marathon majors and US championships and stuff. From my perspective the races felt the same my entire life, it's just that the pace you were able to run for that same discomfort got faster over time. If the pace does not feel hard in the later stages of a race, you are not running hard enough. A 6 minute mile when you were younger felt pretty challenging, and feels what a 5 minute mile later on in life, and then you keep getting faster to where a 4:45 mile feels like a 5 minute mile used to.
I remember Marty Liquori saying how as he got older he learned to appreciate a 6 minute mile pace.
When I ran low 4:20 for the mile, I never appreciated the 5:00 mile barrier. I eventually realized that when you look at all the people who run, competitively and recreationally at all age groups a 5:00 mile is probably faster than all but a small percentage can run.
Yeah, I watched Mantz after his finish yesterday and he looked like he almost blacked out on his feet. He staggered backwards with an unblinking, emotionless look on his face and I immediately recognized that he was red lined.
Then they kept the camera on the finish line as the rest of the 47,000 starting coming in and some seemed fine, others were pretty wasted. A couple of them puked, another one collapsed about 30 yards from the finish, they had volunteers there to help people and they were busy.
I tried longer running but when I ran it hurt like hell and the finish couldn't come fast enough. Which is why I went to shorter races. I wonder if elite pros get that same feeling or is it just a matter of they tolerate pain better and it doesn't bother them.
Elites don't feel pain, they feel discomfort.
Yeah if you're feeling "pain" then somethings wrong. Discomfort sure but that's easy to mitigate and still run fast.
There is a obviously a "rich get richer" effect in the marathon. Consider the concept of "marathon effort", which has an associated level of discomfort experienced when running the particular pace at which they can run 26 miles. For the people at the front, they are only in that discomfort for 2 hours. For others, they are in that discomfort for 3, 4, 5 hours.
Elites often are able to pull out more of a work load in the "deep pain cave" because of experience and conditioning.
I don't think a lot of mid packers would even hit 100% max HR on a Vo2max test (despite thinking they are at their limit)....whereas a lot of elites could hold 100% max HR for 2-4 min.
Being able to push oneself more and more physically and not give in to the intense mental feelings/perception of pain and fatigue come with experience and conditioning.
I was thinking essentially this. Elites push themselves harder than slower runners. You often hear bad runners saying how bad it hurts and they are going to pass out but the second they stop running, they are talking about other things. They dont know what its like to hurt.
Heres some more points i was thinking.
I dont know if i can explain this point and how im thinking but more trained runners will have different limiting factors than less trained runners. Id assume that elites have different muscles that are stronger in relation to other muscles (on the same person.) Like, say, muscle xyz is 50% larger than muscle zyx on an elite, but usually the same size on a back of the pack runner. Does having different certain muscles stronger make you more or less sore, i dont know.
Elites have different limiting factors than back of the pack runners. Example, say a new runner runs out of lung capacity first when running and they are gasping for air. Elites, that isnt s problem. Pushing which bodily system to the max makes you the most sore? Id assume having your muscles being the limiting factor and pushing your musles to the breaking point is what makes you the most sore.
Time spent racing. An elite might only push themselves for 2 hours in a marathon. A back of the pack runner might push themselves for 4.
Overall, i have no idea. Just trying to think of the factors that could be at play.
Elites often are able to pull out more of a work load in the "deep pain cave" because of experience and conditioning.
I don't think a lot of mid packers would even hit 100% max HR on a Vo2max test (despite thinking they are at their limit)....whereas a lot of elites could hold 100% max HR for 2-4 min.
Being able to push oneself more and more physically and not give in to the intense mental feelings/perception of pain and fatigue come with experience and conditioning.
I was thinking essentially this. Elites push themselves harder than slower runners. You often hear bad runners saying how bad it hurts and they are going to pass out but the second they stop running, they are talking about other things. They dont know what its like to hurt.
Heres some more points i was thinking.
I dont know if i can explain this point and how im thinking but more trained runners will have different limiting factors than less trained runners. Id assume that elites have different muscles that are stronger in relation to other muscles (on the same person.) Like, say, muscle xyz is 50% larger than muscle zyx on an elite, but usually the same size on a back of the pack runner. Does having different certain muscles stronger make you more or less sore, i dont know.
Elites have different limiting factors than back of the pack runners. Example, say a new runner runs out of lung capacity first when running and they are gasping for air. Elites, that isnt s problem. Pushing which bodily system to the max makes you the most sore? Id assume having your muscles being the limiting factor and pushing your musles to the breaking point is what makes you the most sore.
Time spent racing. An elite might only push themselves for 2 hours in a marathon. A back of the pack runner might push themselves for 4.
Overall, i have no idea. Just trying to think of the factors that could be at play.
I don't know about that. We've seen elite runners drop out because they bonked and also collapse at the finish then you have the Duel in the Sun where Salazar was completely spent. I think the talent difference is irrelevant if you break it down individually. The 4 hour runner may be pushing just as hard to set a PB as the elite runner is.
Have none of you gotten fit, lost fitnesses and then got fit again?
Running sucks when you aren’t fit. It is why regular people look at runners like they are crazy, it simply isn’t very enjoyable to start.
When you are shape, whole different game. Even when it hurts, it hurts good. The hurt is steady and comfortable, not rising and unpredictable like when out of shape.