Just some correction there. The Japanese guy you refered to is Yuki Kawauchi and most interesting in this debate.As an amateur he worked eight hours daily at a school office and did his only daily run in the morning before work.That way he ran a 2:08 marathon.Then he won Boston marathon and decided to give it a go as a pro.He started to train doubles but after some time just got worse in races.Never ran close to or sub 2:10 again. He then decided to switch back to his old one session per day and it took not long before he ran a new pb and 2:07 at the marathon. Then some say the guy must be an outlier and his training not transferable to the great mass of runners.Some other examples of top runners in history with similar once a day training shows that this is hardly the case.
There is a bit more to the Kawauchi story. He did some incredibly long long runs on weekends. If I remember correctly it was like half day long unstructured runs.
Yes, he did some really long runs sometimes but he raced alot in the weekends.What I think is more of interest when it comes to singles VS doubles , as we discuss here in this thread, is that Kawauchi often did singles 70-80 min in the weekdays. There are some scientific studies I have read that concluded there was a big difference in mitochondrial and enzyme production in the last 10-20 min regarding 70-80 min of running compared to running 60 min or less.So that could be one of the explanations why Kawauchi looks to have reached individual optimal aerobic ability of only running singles.
There are some scientific studies I have read that concluded there was a big difference in mitochondrial and enzyme production in the last 10-20 min regarding 70-80 min of running compared to running 60 min or less.
Singles until your running for more than about 70-75 minutes, then start breaking it up, except for the long run which is obviously supposed to be long. So an 80 minute run can become a 50 minute, 30 minute double. But not much sense in splitting a 60 minute run.
So someone running 7 minute pace would get up to a 10 mile run, but 12+ would start breaking it up to an 8, 4 double or eventually big mileage days like 10 mile 8 mile doubles, or for Cam Levins 12 mile 10 mile doubles or even triples.
The exception to this is if you're training for a marathon and you incorporate the 'mid week long run' and do a 90-100 minute run in the middle of the week and your long run is 2-3 hours.
I've found huge value in doubling at a variety of weekly mileages. You don't need to be running 10 miles a day in one run to start doubling.
Maybe individual preference. It doesn't seem worth it to me to only lace up and shower afterwards for a 25 minute run and then another run for 25 minutes. Might as well do it and be done with it and have the rest of the day to do whatever else you need to get done. But if you've got all the time in the world, go ahead and run a mile every hour if you want.
Kawauchi ran the 2:08 in Japanese-style flats, so probably was capable of a 2:06 in today's shoes -- pretty wild on low-ish mileage. I think given his incessant racing (1-2 marathons a month + shorter stuff), doing a traditional big mileage block would be too much.
He did wear the super shoes for his 2:07, which was past his peak.
To me double it helps a lot Two very important things 1) Recovery 2) Total mileage that is connected with better general endurance and better fatigue resistance. This is the way for example Kipchoge does . If you look at his training program , they use to add usually 3 times a week an extra easy run 50/60 minutes sometime can be very slow and is something that helps to clean the legs from hard workout. Better than any massage . And also add those 40 / 45 km to the weekly mileage but the main thing is to help a quicker recover for the next session. And this it works also for amateur runners . Normally they do only single run but sure if somebody has the time , and the will to do double 3 or 4 times a week always as recovery runs ( forget special block a la Canova or Double threshold sessions a la Ingebrigtsen) would have great results.
Another single session runner in history I like to highlight in the single/ double debate is Michael Mysioki. In the -90s he dominated the American road race cirkus . His normal training week was told to be : M 6-8 x 800 m @ 2:06-2:08 Tu; 60 min easy We: 1 hour @ 3;10 min/ km Th: 60 min easy Fr; 60 min easy Sa ; 2 hours easy Su; day off. He won many famous road races and took an Olympic bronze medal at 10000 m . His only marathon ( as I remember it ) a 2:10. He had at a time the world record half marathon at 61min .
I don't think it's a debate. Not anymore. Doubles are the clear winner, the debate is just when to start them. Malmo advocates as early as possible, even at low mileage. I assume low mileage doubles are more beneficial for 1500 to 10k and marathoners would start doubling at higher mileage.
I do think, especially for inexperienced runners, doubles can help you run in the faster range of your easy runs if you believe that is important to improvement. My average pace for an easy 3, 4 double is always going to be faster than 7 continuous
The only benefit I can see for doubles is that there can be a speed session and an endurance/recovery session the same day. For full-time athletes this can be a big benefit if they can rest and recover well. For those of us working full time, we might not have the time for 1 long session on a workday, so splitting things up might be necessary to get the volume we need.
I don't think it's a debate. Not anymore. Doubles are the clear winner, the debate is just when to start them. Malmo advocates as early as possible, even at low mileage. I assume low mileage doubles are more beneficial for 1500 to 10k and marathoners would start doubling at higher mileage.
I do think, especially for inexperienced runners, doubles can help you run in the faster range of your easy runs if you believe that is important to improvement. My average pace for an easy 3, 4 double is always going to be faster than 7 continuous
Shouldn't we instead give more weight to the guy who beat malmo in that half marathon mentioned above?
I don't think it's a debate. Not anymore. Doubles are the clear winner, the debate is just when to start them. Malmo advocates as early as possible, even at low mileage. I assume low mileage doubles are more beneficial for 1500 to 10k and marathoners would start doubling at higher mileage.
I do think, especially for inexperienced runners, doubles can help you run in the faster range of your easy runs if you believe that is important to improvement. My average pace for an easy 3, 4 double is always going to be faster than 7 continuous
Shouldn't we instead give more weight to the guy who beat malmo in that half marathon mentioned above?
No.
Had Musioki trained like me he would have run at least a minute or two faster. Had I trained like him I would have been at least 2 minutes slower. I had missed nearly a year of training due to plantar fasciitis. A bad tear. Musioki had years of uninterrupted training. I had four months. Even so, my heel would take another two years before it was 100 percent.
Shouldn't we instead give more weight to the guy who beat malmo in that half marathon mentioned above?
No.
Had Musioki trained like me he would have run at least a minute or two faster. Had I trained like him I would have been at least 2 minutes slower. I had missed nearly a year of training due to plantar fasciitis. A bad tear. Musioki had years of uninterrupted training. I had four months. Even so, my heel would take another two years before it was 100 percent.
Nice try, Son.
To make a serious comment on what you here wrote malmo, don't you think you can learn something out of this? I mean he ran continous fast very good top results on singles and low mileage for years and you with your doubles were often injured and sometimes inbetween ran very good top results.I don't think he had run at least one- two minutes faster with doubles as you guess. But what we for sure know is that Mysyoki was a great elite runner on just singles and low mileage.🙏🖐🇸🇪🧙♂️Coach J.S
There is a bit more to the Kawauchi story. He did some incredibly long long runs on weekends. If I remember correctly it was like half day long unstructured runs.
Yes, he did some really long runs sometimes but he raced alot in the weekends.What I think is more of interest when it comes to singles VS doubles , as we discuss here in this thread, is that Kawauchi often did singles 70-80 min in the weekdays. There are some scientific studies I have read that concluded there was a big difference in mitochondrial and enzyme production in the last 10-20 min regarding 70-80 min of running compared to running 60 min or less.So that could be one of the explanations why Kawauchi looks to have reached individual optimal aerobic ability of only running singles.
Yes, perhaps it was the racing constantly that got him fast. I don't think 70-80 min runs is that unique. A lot of guys, especially in Japan, are running that without Yuki's results. Heck, I run 80-90 mins most days and am nowhere near that level.
To make a serious comment on what you here wrote malmo, don't you think you can learn something out of this? I mean he ran continous fast very good top results on singles and low mileage for years and you with your doubles were often injured and sometimes inbetween ran very good top results.I don't think he had run at least one- two minutes faster with doubles as you guess. But what we for sure know is that Mysyoki was a great elite runner on just singles and low mileage.🙏🖐🇸🇪🧙♂️Coach J.S
Idiot. I wasn't often injured. I had one injury that was caused by jamming my foot in a frozen rut while training for world cross country. Stay in your lane. You don't know wtf you're talking about.
Mike Musioki had a long uninterrupted steak of high level racing. Yet he was only able to beat me by 7 seconds after just 4 months of training.
To make a serious comment on what you here wrote malmo, don't you think you can learn something out of this? I mean he ran continous fast very good top results on singles and low mileage for years and you with your doubles were often injured and sometimes inbetween ran very good top results.I don't think he had run at least one- two minutes faster with doubles as you guess. But what we for sure know is that Mysyoki was a great elite runner on just singles and low mileage.🙏🖐🇸🇪🧙♂️Coach J.S
Idiot. I wasn't often injured. I had one injury that was caused by jamming my foot in a frozen rut while training for world cross country. Stay in your lane. You don't know wtf you're talking about.
Mike Musioki had a long uninterrupted steak of high level racing. Yet he was only able to beat me by 7 seconds after just 4 months of training.
You failed at logic and knowledge of the facts.
Ahaha! Maybe you should try to stay away from being rude,don't you think?.I think most normal people here agree with me in that advice.....😉
You, and even I, don't know for sure how fast Mysyoki had been on doubles and we will never know, we can just make an experienced and qualified guess.And you wrote yourself that Mysyoki had several of years with uninterrupted training away from injuries.
Idiot. I wasn't often injured. I had one injury that was caused by jamming my foot in a frozen rut while training for world cross country. Stay in your lane. You don't know wtf you're talking about.
Mike Musioki had a long uninterrupted steak of high level racing. Yet he was only able to beat me by 7 seconds after just 4 months of training.
You failed at logic and knowledge of the facts.
Ahaha! Maybe you should try to stay away from being rude,don't you think?.I think most normal people here agree with me in that advice.....😉
You, and even I, don't know for sure how fast Mysyoki had been on doubles and we will never know, we can just make an experienced and qualified guess.And you wrote yourself that Mysyoki had several of years with uninterrupted training away from injuries.
We created a special thread for you because of your persistent vandalism. You should respect our generosity and stay there -- where facts don't matter and its all about you.
We created a special thread for you because of your persistent vandalism. You should respect our generosity and stay there -- where facts don't matter and its all about you.
To me double it helps a lot Two very important things 1) Recovery 2) Total mileage that is connected with better general endurance and better fatigue resistance. This is the way for example Kipchoge does . If you look at his training program , they use to add usually 3 times a week an extra easy run 50/60 minutes sometime can be very slow and is something that helps to clean the legs from hard workout. Better than any massage . And also add those 40 / 45 km to the weekly mileage but the main thing is to help a quicker recover for the next session. And this it works also for amateur runners . Normally they do only single run but sure if somebody has the time , and the will to do double 3 or 4 times a week always as recovery runs ( forget special block a la Canova or Double threshold sessions a la Ingebrigtsen) would have great results.
As a 17/18 5K runner I tried adding a 4-5 mile jog in the evenings and all it did was cut into my recovery and tire my legs further. I honestly saw no improvement in my times.