HS coaching disagreement: Who's the A**hole? You decide!

Juicy Lucy wrote:

If I am, let me know! Here is the story, via text, verbatim, with identifying details changed. I am the MD/Distance coach.

Background: My girl 800 runner has got close to an 800 qualifying standard this season, but didn't quite make it. I thought of throwing her in a 400 at our next-town-over last-chance meet, because I always thought she had 400 ability, and she was open to the idea...less so to trying another 800.

The text messages between me and the head coach:

Me: It looks like Boy Athlete likes his chances in the 400, and is going to try to run the 400/2 mi. He won't need to enter the last chance meet, but I asked him if he wouldn't mind pacing Girl 300 Hurdler. Also, I think Girl 800 runner may want to jump into a 400, but we aren't quite square on that right now.

Follow up a couple hours later...

ME: So we have Girl 800 runner in the 400, and Boy MD runner can pace Girl Hurdler and Girl 800 runner. I don't know exactly what your plan is for tomorrow, so I will tell them to be in touch.

Editorial: the last chance meet that we run allows athletes to do pace work.

Head Coach: Has she ever run a 400?

ME: She was supposed to run a 400 and had to miss a meet when her grandfather died.

Head Coach: She had other meets? I'm not sure that I'd feel great about her doing an event she hasn't ever done before. It's a last chance meet meaning they're close in their events. She never even ran one in indoor right?

ME: I would bet that Girl 800 runner has a better chance at qualifying in a 400 than Girl Hurdler has in the 300 hurdles. Plus, Meet Hosting Coach doesn't care. Also, Girl 800 runner has done a number of workouts which indicate that she can run a qualifying standard in a 400...

Head Coach: Until she bumps some girl out of the state meet who has been working hard in the 400 all year

Head Coach: I guess I'm just asking where this is coming from when she's had 4 meets and an indoor season.

If she thinks she can run 400 qualifying standard why hasn't she run an open 400

ME: She was supposed to run a 400 already, and she was also supposed to be in 2 4x4's that we ditched on. I don't understand your point about bumping someone else.

Head Coach: She didn't want to run the 4x4, I asked her when I was putting teams together on the weeks we haven't bailed and I've needed someone to run.

Editorial: I would be the person asking/telling the md/distance runner to run a 4x4, and I never heard anything about this...

Me, in reply: I remember watching Graduated Male Race Walker miss out on making the race walk, and surely it's not as much of an incumbrance on the Meet Host coaching staff to have one girl run a 400, and quite frankly, I'm kind of surprised that if there's a person who stands a chance of making it, that there should be any debate. I do know that Girl 800 runner also was planning on running the 4x4 a couple times, and as I said, she was going to run an open 4 when her grandfather died. I don't know what else to say... I really don't understand the friction.

SO...is there anything here that I should be mad about? Am I the jerk? LET ME KNOW!

CopperRunner wrote:

Juicy Lucy wrote:

I am literally laughing out loud, because I did eat juicy lucys on the grill (I tried a little blue cheese and chedder) in the Northeast, and the next town over has a last chance meet where they let boys pace girls to get a standard. Too funny. Some people on the internet just have to think they know what's really going on. I've been nothing but truthful, including my perhaps needlessly long text tete-a-tete.

You are definitely an a$hole, not gonna pretend to know if you are THE a$hole.

Anyways, as per the national rules (which high schools all over the country have to follow) a male can’t pace a female for an official mark, it takes an official mark to qualify for a state meet or some other championship meet like Arcadia or Nike Nationals or what-not. I’m pretty sure females aren’t even allowed to pace females for an official mark, that’s obviously harder to regulate but means you can’t have pacers subbing in/ subbing out etc.

I don’t know what anyone that would be running at that meet would hope to be qualifying for, but it isn’t gonna be any meet worth qualifying for if they are taking seed times from unofficial races.

bigmig19 wrote:

Juicy Lucy wrote:

If I am, let me know! Here is the story, via text, verbatim, with identifying details changed. I am the MD/Distance coach.

Background: My girl 800 runner has got close to an 800 qualifying standard this season, but didn't quite make it. I thought of throwing her in a 400 at our next-town-over last-chance meet, because I always thought she had 400 ability, and she was open to the idea...less so to trying another 800.

The text messages between me and the head coach:

Me: It looks like Boy Athlete likes his chances in the 400, and is going to try to run the 400/2 mi. He won't need to enter the last chance meet, but I asked him if he wouldn't mind pacing Girl 300 Hurdler. Also, I think Girl 800 runner may want to jump into a 400, but we aren't quite square on that right now.

Follow up a couple hours later...

ME: So we have Girl 800 runner in the 400, and Boy MD runner can pace Girl Hurdler and Girl 800 runner. I don't know exactly what your plan is for tomorrow, so I will tell them to be in touch.

Editorial: the last chance meet that we run allows athletes to do pace work.

Head Coach: Has she ever run a 400?

ME: She was supposed to run a 400 and had to miss a meet when her grandfather died.

Head Coach: She had other meets? I'm not sure that I'd feel great about her doing an event she hasn't ever done before. It's a last chance meet meaning they're close in their events. She never even ran one in indoor right?

ME: I would bet that Girl 800 runner has a better chance at qualifying in a 400 than Girl Hurdler has in the 300 hurdles. Plus, Meet Hosting Coach doesn't care. Also, Girl 800 runner has done a number of workouts which indicate that she can run a qualifying standard in a 400...

Head Coach: Until she bumps some girl out of the state meet who has been working hard in the 400 all year

Head Coach: I guess I'm just asking where this is coming from when she's had 4 meets and an indoor season.

If she thinks she can run 400 qualifying standard why hasn't she run an open 400

ME: She was supposed to run a 400 already, and she was also supposed to be in 2 4x4's that we ditched on. I don't understand your point about bumping someone else.

Head Coach: She didn't want to run the 4x4, I asked her when I was putting teams together on the weeks we haven't bailed and I've needed someone to run.

Editorial: I would be the person asking/telling the md/distance runner to run a 4x4, and I never heard anything about this...

Me, in reply: I remember watching Graduated Male Race Walker miss out on making the race walk, and surely it's not as much of an incumbrance on the Meet Host coaching staff to have one girl run a 400, and quite frankly, I'm kind of surprised that if there's a person who stands a chance of making it, that there should be any debate. I do know that Girl 800 runner also was planning on running the 4x4 a couple times, and as I said, she was going to run an open 4 when her grandfather died. I don't know what else to say... I really don't understand the friction.

SO...is there anything here that I should be mad about? Am I the jerk? LET ME KNOW!

Real answer: Text is the issue. So, we teach professionalism at my residency program and I can tell you the main issue by FAR...is doing this by text. I know, im old. But everyone must, at this point, have some experience with the text thread gone bad, no? There is no context, no facial expressions, no tone of voice (and everyone is a tough guy on text syndrome too). Further, everyone lowers their prik threshold on text that they would never do face to face. I am as sure of this as the sky is blue. I have seen so many text (and email and thread) encounters go off the rails due to defensiveness that never needed to be there. How many people do you see each day face to face just insulting each other and yelling at each other awkwardly? Probably none. But it happens constantly on text (and email). It just escalates and ratchets. This coach IMO would not talk to you in person this way.

Answer to your actual question: You seem to be the professional here and asking a good question. I dont know all the logistical and strategic pressure the HC is up against in a last chance meet, but my first impression is he needs to lighten TFU. Jeez. BTW, I lost track of why you didn't just put her in the 8 to qualify if she's that close? But anyway, an 800 runner wanting to run the 400 should be encouraged. This isnt the olympics. He is getting too bogged down with the past and making a federal case out of it. Again, assuming he doesnt have some super strategic reason, like in a state meet? I am particularly annoyed by the old "person who has been working hard all year" line. Well, guess what, I sure your 800 girl works hard too. Hate it when people say that.

CopperRunner wrote:

Juicy Lucy wrote:

I am literally laughing out loud, because I did eat juicy lucys on the grill (I tried a little blue cheese and chedder) in the Northeast, and the next town over has a last chance meet where they let boys pace girls to get a standard. Too funny. Some people on the internet just have to think they know what's really going on. I've been nothing but truthful, including my perhaps needlessly long text tete-a-tete.

You are definitely an a$hole, not gonna pretend to know if you are THE a$hole.

Anyways, as per the national rules (which high schools all over the country have to follow) a male can’t pace a female for an official mark, it takes an official mark to qualify for a state meet or some other championship meet like Arcadia or Nike Nationals or what-not. I’m pretty sure females aren’t even allowed to pace females for an official mark, that’s obviously harder to regulate but means you can’t have pacers subbing in/ subbing out etc.

I don’t know what anyone that would be running at that meet would hope to be qualifying for, but it isn’t gonna be any meet worth qualifying for if they are taking seed times from unofficial races.

Juicy Lucy wrote:

If I am, let me know! Here is the story, via text, verbatim, with identifying details changed. I am the MD/Distance coach.

Background: My girl 800 runner has got close to an 800 qualifying standard this season, but didn't quite make it. I thought of throwing her in a 400 at our next-town-over last-chance meet, because I always thought she had 400 ability, and she was open to the idea...less so to trying another 800.

The text messages between me and the head coach:

Me: It looks like Boy Athlete likes his chances in the 400, and is going to try to run the 400/2 mi. He won't need to enter the last chance meet, but I asked him if he wouldn't mind pacing Girl 300 Hurdler. Also, I think Girl 800 runner may want to jump into a 400, but we aren't quite square on that right now.

Follow up a couple hours later...

ME: So we have Girl 800 runner in the 400, and Boy MD runner can pace Girl Hurdler and Girl 800 runner. I don't know exactly what your plan is for tomorrow, so I will tell them to be in touch.

Editorial: the last chance meet that we run allows athletes to do pace work.

Head Coach: Has she ever run a 400?

ME: She was supposed to run a 400 and had to miss a meet when her grandfather died.

Head Coach: She had other meets? I'm not sure that I'd feel great about her doing an event she hasn't ever done before. It's a last chance meet meaning they're close in their events. She never even ran one in indoor right?

ME: I would bet that Girl 800 runner has a better chance at qualifying in a 400 than Girl Hurdler has in the 300 hurdles. Plus, Meet Hosting Coach doesn't care. Also, Girl 800 runner has done a number of workouts which indicate that she can run a qualifying standard in a 400...

Head Coach: Until she bumps some girl out of the state meet who has been working hard in the 400 all year

Head Coach: I guess I'm just asking where this is coming from when she's had 4 meets and an indoor season.

If she thinks she can run 400 qualifying standard why hasn't she run an open 400

ME: She was supposed to run a 400 already, and she was also supposed to be in 2 4x4's that we ditched on. I don't understand your point about bumping someone else.

Head Coach: She didn't want to run the 4x4, I asked her when I was putting teams together on the weeks we haven't bailed and I've needed someone to run.

Editorial: I would be the person asking/telling the md/distance runner to run a 4x4, and I never heard anything about this...

Me, in reply: I remember watching Graduated Male Race Walker miss out on making the race walk, and surely it's not as much of an incumbrance on the Meet Host coaching staff to have one girl run a 400, and quite frankly, I'm kind of surprised that if there's a person who stands a chance of making it, that there should be any debate. I do know that Girl 800 runner also was planning on running the 4x4 a couple times, and as I said, she was going to run an open 4 when her grandfather died. I don't know what else to say... I really don't understand the friction.

SO...is there anything here that I should be mad about? Am I the jerk? LET ME KNOW!

Juicy Lucy wrote:

If I am, let me know! Here is the story, via text, verbatim, with identifying details changed. I am the MD/Distance coach.

Background: My girl 800 runner has got close to an 800 qualifying standard this season, but didn't quite make it. I thought of throwing her in a 400 at our next-town-over last-chance meet, because I always thought she had 400 ability, and she was open to the idea...less so to trying another 800.

The text messages between me and the head coach:

Me: It looks like Boy Athlete likes his chances in the 400, and is going to try to run the 400/2 mi. He won't need to enter the last chance meet, but I asked him if he wouldn't mind pacing Girl 300 Hurdler. Also, I think Girl 800 runner may want to jump into a 400, but we aren't quite square on that right now.

Follow up a couple hours later...

ME: So we have Girl 800 runner in the 400, and Boy MD runner can pace Girl Hurdler and Girl 800 runner. I don't know exactly what your plan is for tomorrow, so I will tell them to be in touch.

Editorial: the last chance meet that we run allows athletes to do pace work.

Head Coach: Has she ever run a 400?

ME: She was supposed to run a 400 and had to miss a meet when her grandfather died.

Head Coach: She had other meets? I'm not sure that I'd feel great about her doing an event she hasn't ever done before. It's a last chance meet meaning they're close in their events. She never even ran one in indoor right?

ME: I would bet that Girl 800 runner has a better chance at qualifying in a 400 than Girl Hurdler has in the 300 hurdles. Plus, Meet Hosting Coach doesn't care. Also, Girl 800 runner has done a number of workouts which indicate that she can run a qualifying standard in a 400...

Head Coach: Until she bumps some girl out of the state meet who has been working hard in the 400 all year

Head Coach: I guess I'm just asking where this is coming from when she's had 4 meets and an indoor season.

If she thinks she can run 400 qualifying standard why hasn't she run an open 400

ME: She was supposed to run a 400 already, and she was also supposed to be in 2 4x4's that we ditched on. I don't understand your point about bumping someone else.

Head Coach: She didn't want to run the 4x4, I asked her when I was putting teams together on the weeks we haven't bailed and I've needed someone to run.

Editorial: I would be the person asking/telling the md/distance runner to run a 4x4, and I never heard anything about this...

Me, in reply: I remember watching Graduated Male Race Walker miss out on making the race walk, and surely it's not as much of an incumbrance on the Meet Host coaching staff to have one girl run a 400, and quite frankly, I'm kind of surprised that if there's a person who stands a chance of making it, that there should be any debate. I do know that Girl 800 runner also was planning on running the 4x4 a couple times, and as I said, she was going to run an open 4 when her grandfather died. I don't know what else to say... I really don't understand the friction.

SO...is there anything here that I should be mad about? Am I the jerk? LET ME KNOW!