WA seems to have taken a step in the right direction. Dictated by science to the extent it can provide meaningful insights while being sensitive to human rights, all while making both sides unhappy, which is indicative of a good compromise.
Please provide links to the science showing that human males who reduce their testosterone for a time following puberty of adolescence lose the wide range of physical characteristics that give male humans as a group such enormous advantages over female humans in nearly all sports.
AFAIK, all the science done on this topic so far shows that males who reduce their testosterone retain nearly all the physical advantages over females they obtained from developing as male in utero and going through male mini puberty of infancy and male puberty of adolescence.
A peer-reviewed paper published in the British Journal of Sports Medicine in 2022 showed that after testosterone suppression (and in some cases total absence due to orchiectomy) along with daily use of high-dose exogenous estrogen for an average of more than 14 years, males in the prime of life (early-mid 30s on average) identifying as transgender still have 20% more muscle strength, 20% more cardiopulmonary capacity/VO2 max, considerably greater lean muscle mass and far less body fat than females of comparable ages.
And those were only the few physical features that the researchers measured too. T suppression and exogenous estrogen do nothing to change the male skeleton, shape of the male pelvis, the male Q angle, male tendon strength, male body mechanics, the much larger size of the male heart and lungs, etc.
Similarly, years of T suppression and taking exogenous estrogen do not endow human males with any of the distinctive features of human female anatomy and physiology that make women and girls physically different to males in thousands of ways - and which can be a disadvantage in most sports.
The ways that female humans are physically different to male human endow us with some special superpowers - such as being able to conceive, gestate and give birth to large-headed human babies without our bodies being torn apart; being able to use our breasts to feed and immunize young human offspring so that they stay not only stay alive, but they thrive and are healthy; and being able to live for many decades after our reproductive years are over. But the ways in which female humans are physically different to male humans also put us at a big disadvantage relative to males when it comes to most sports. Which isn't surprising since sports were designed in the first place by men for the express purpose of showing off the set of physical activities and feats that male human bodies have evolved to be particularly good at.
I believe that all people regardless of their sex, sexual orientation, gender expression and gender identity (for those who have have one), health status, etc deserve to live in peace, safety and dignity free of unfair discrimination and mistreatment. I agree that every human being deserves "human rights." But I don't agree that any males have a "human right" to participate and compete in the category of sport established for human beings who are female.
Please share why you think some males have a "human right" to female sports.
I see that you still haven’t acquired the ability to write in fewer than eight paragraphs. I prefer not to engage with airhead scatterbrains blathering all over the place.
You’ve been previously provided references but have never demonstrated the ability to absorb scientific papers or get past your outdated ideology. It’s as if when there’s just air in there, things go right through eyes and ears and come out the other way. When you learn to speak science and to write concisely and to recognize differences in a debate, I’ll know and might then consider giving you attention.
Some persons with Semenya's DSD, XY 5-ARD type 2, have been documented to have T levels of more than 47 nmol/L. Some persons with XY PAIS, Chand's DSD, have been documented to have T of more than 68 nmol/L. Whereas the top end of the normal T range for XY persons who don't have DSDs is 29-30 nmol/L.
That is high. I had no idea that DSD XY can have testosterone higher than regular males.
The thing I wonder about with T suppression is also - how quickly do the drugs work? How do you know they are really suppressing all the time?
I knew a transgender woman who was involved in a sport (not athletics) and would regularly skip meds when she was involved in her events. She did this because she noticed a performance difference. She was a recreational athlete, so not a pro. But it got me thinking about how WA tracks compliance with testosterone levels and if athletes could reap the benefits and then just lower for competition testing.
Perhaps in the case of 5-ARD deficiency the impaired conversion to DHT causes more testosterone to remain as testosterone.
5αR2 is expressed in specific tissues and catalyzes the transformation of testosterone (T) to 5α-dihydrotestosterone (DHT).
Whether or not these individual XY DSD athletes "retain all the traits of a regular male athlete" seems immaterial to me. The point is, they have enough of the physical traits of regular male athletes - starting with their male chromosomes, male genetics, male testes that pump out male levels of testosterone, and male androgen receptors - that it's patently unfair for them to be in women's competition. At the same time, they have none of the myriad physical traits that disadvantage female athletes in sports.
Well, the poster I was responding to (Sancreed) asked the question because you wrote (in #28):
RunRagged wrote:
But the XY athletes with DSDs whose participation in female sports is contested do not meet the criteria for being physically disabled, particularly not in any way that has a bearing on sports performance. They are all robustly healthy, with all their limbs and senses fully intact. None of them have medical conditions that prevent them from achieving peak physical fitness, reaching their full potential in sport, or which put them at a competitive disadvantage relative to other males in sport.
It may seem immaterial to you, but that didn't stop you from writing the above. That was in response to the question of whehter there should be a separate category for athletes with XY DSD, like a para category. If you are uninterested in that question, then it is immaterial to you. But then, why do you need to comment on something you consider unimportant?
Is it good as long as athletes with XY DSD don't compete in the women's category? Or is it important to you whether they compete in the men's category or their own category? If it is the matter, why does it matter to you?
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
Whether or not these individual XY DSD athletes "retain all the traits of a regular male athlete" seems immaterial to me. The point is, they have enough of the physical traits of regular male athletes - starting with their male chromosomes, male genetics, male testes that pump out male levels of testosterone, and male androgen receptors - that it's patently unfair for them to be in women's competition. At the same time, they have none of the myriad physical traits that disadvantage female athletes in sports.
Well, the poster I was responding to (Sancreed) asked the question because you wrote (in #28):
RunRagged wrote:
But the XY athletes with DSDs whose participation in female sports is contested do not meet the criteria for being physically disabled, particularly not in any way that has a bearing on sports performance. They are all robustly healthy, with all their limbs and senses fully intact. None of them have medical conditions that prevent them from achieving peak physical fitness, reaching their full potential in sport, or which put them at a competitive disadvantage relative to other males in sport.
It may seem immaterial to you, but that didn't stop you from writing the above. That was in response to the question of whehter there should be a separate category for athletes with XY DSD, like a para category. If you are uninterested in that question, then it is immaterial to you. But then, why do you need to comment on something you consider unimportant?
Is it good as long as athletes with XY DSD don't compete in the women's category? Or is it important to you whether they compete in the men's category or their own category? If it is the matter, why does it matter to you?
Yes, that is what I was wondering. If they have nothing which puts "them at a competitive disadvantage relative to other males in the sport" as Runragged wrote, then indeed there is no need for a separate category and they can compete on regular terms with men.
However, if they have advantages over female athletes, but also have DSD disorders that mean they are also disadvantaged against regular male athletes, then the case is somewhat more nuanced. In that situation, I imagine an argument could be made for a separate category or special categorization as per the Para suggestion.
I agree that they should not be competing with biological women at all. However, the "let them race the men" approach might not be completely fair either...
Is it good as long as athletes with XY DSD don't compete in the women's category? Or is it important to you whether they compete in the men's category or their own category? If it is the matter, why does it matter to you?
Yes, that is what I was wondering. If they have nothing which puts "them at a competitive disadvantage relative to other males in the sport" as Runragged wrote, then indeed there is no need for a separate category and they can compete on regular terms with men.
However, if they have advantages over female athletes, but also have DSD disorders that mean they are also disadvantaged against regular male athletes, then the case is somewhat more nuanced. In that situation, I imagine an argument could be made for a separate category or special categorization as per the Para suggestion.
I agree that they should not be competing with biological women at all. However, the "let them race the men" approach might not be completely fair either...
With a Y chromosome they are biologcally male. Plenty of males are not going to be competitive in the male category. The solution is not to put them in the category for biological females (xx).
It could be a third category. Or Para sport type solution. Or having male be open category.
But setting female records and displacing female athletes is not the solution.
I see that you still haven’t acquired the ability to write in fewer than eight paragraphs. I prefer not to engage with airhead scatterbrains blathering all over the place.
You’ve been previously provided references but have never demonstrated the ability to absorb scientific papers or get past your outdated ideology. It’s as if when there’s just air in there, things go right through eyes and ears and come out the other way. When you learn to speak science and to write concisely and to recognize differences in a debate, I’ll know and might then consider giving you attention.
I politely asked you to:
1) Please provide links to the science showing that human males who reduce their testosterone for a time following puberty of adolescence lose the wide range of physical characteristics that give male humans as a group such enormous advantages over female humans in nearly all sports.
2) Please share why you think some males have a "human right" to female sports.
Instead of sharing what you know for the benefit of me and others reading this thread, you slag me off as an airhead scatterbrain blathering all over the place who has
never demonstrated the ability to absorb scientific papers or get past your outdated ideology.
And you further say that due to having nothing but air in my scatterbrained empty head that things go right through [your] eyes and ears and come out the other way.
As your parting shot, you harrumph, When you learn to speak science and to write concisely and to recognize differences in a debate, I’ll know and might then consider giving you attention.
Gee, mate, why not just say "Nyah, nyah, nyah" and be done with it? Or why not just ignore me and not respond at all?
By choosing instead to slag me off with a bunch of puerile insults and alleging that it's due to "outdated ideology" that I believe the physical sex differences evolution has endowed humans with that matter in sports are real, numerous, significant and mostly irreducible, all you've done is make it crystal clear that
1) you've got nothing to back up your claim that WA's proposed policy changes are "dictated by science... while being sensitive to human rights"
2) you believe males who claim to be women deserve more "human rights" than females who actually are women.
Well, the poster I was responding to (Sancreed) asked the question because you wrote (in #28):
It may seem immaterial to you, but that didn't stop you from writing the above. That was in response to the question of whehter there should be a separate category for athletes with XY DSD, like a para category. If you are uninterested in that question, then it is immaterial to you. But then, why do you need to comment on something you consider unimportant?
Is it good as long as athletes with XY DSD don't compete in the women's category? Or is it important to you whether they compete in the men's category or their own category? If it is the matter, why does it matter to you?
Whether it would be best and fairest for XY DSD athletes with conditions like Semenya's and Chand's to get their own category, compete in para sports, or compete with the rest of the male sex in a division called either the men's or open category is not for me to say. Persons with those conditions need to figure out the approach they think is best and then campaign and lobby for it. That's what women had to do.
I simply want to see an end to the policies which allow males with DSDs like XY 5-ARD and PAIS as well as males who make claims about having special gender identities to gain eligibility in the female category.
However, I do think it's worth repeating that XY DSD athletes with conditions like Semenya's and Chand's would probably have a very hard time convincing the people in charge of para sports that they should be in para sports too. Because none of the XY DSD athletes who are now in women's track and other sports like elite international soccer in such significant numbers are physically disabled, particularly or at least not in any way that has any bearing on sports performance.
That is high. I had no idea that DSD XY can have testosterone higher than regular males.
The thing I wonder about with T suppression is also - how quickly do the drugs work? How do you know they are really suppressing all the time?
I knew a transgender woman who was involved in a sport (not athletics) and would regularly skip meds when she was involved in her events. She did this because she noticed a performance difference. She was a recreational athlete, so not a pro. But it got me thinking about how WA tracks compliance with testosterone levels and if athletes could reap the benefits and then just lower for competition testing.
See tables 3 and 4 in this paper in Clinical Endocrinology published in 2018:
The range for T in males that WA says is normal is 7.7-29.4 nmol/L.
By contrast, the paper linked to above says
The mean/medians for males with 5ARD2 ranged from 13.4 to 31.2 nmol/L (386-899 ng/dL), and the absolute range of individual values was 3.6-47.2 nmol/L (104-1360 ng/dL).
Males with AIS had mean/medians ranging from 11.9 to 55.7 nmol/L (343-1605 ng/dL), and the overall absolute range was 4.8-68.3 nmol/L (138-1968 ng/dL) Testosterone levels were similar in males with partial AIS (PAIS) and complete AIS (CAIS).
You do realize that in people with CAIS, serum levels of testosterone are irrelevant. If you have complete androgen resistance, then the testosterone is unable to exert any effect on external genitalia, skin, muscle, bone, immune, CV or metabolic systems. They have a female external genitalia and body habitus and most often they are diagnosed because of amenorrhea and soon after they undergo removal of their undescended testes and female hormone replacement therapy. These individuals have/will accrue none of the benefits of male puberty. You believe these individuals should be forced to choose between competing in male sports or not at all?
Here’s the scenario, you have a young girl who loves basketball, she’s been playing of her youth teams for many years, loving the sport and the comraderie. She presents with primary amenorrhea to her pediatrician and is diagnosed with CAIS. You are going to tell her she’s banned from the girl’s freshman HS team and has to play on the boy’s team or sit out?
Yes, that is what I was wondering. If they have nothing which puts "them at a competitive disadvantage relative to other males in the sport" as Runragged wrote, then indeed there is no need for a separate category and they can compete on regular terms with men.
However, if they have advantages over female athletes, but also have DSD disorders that mean they are also disadvantaged against regular male athletes, then the case is somewhat more nuanced. In that situation, I imagine an argument could be made for a separate category or special categorization as per the Para suggestion.
I agree that they should not be competing with biological women at all. However, the "let them race the men" approach might not be completely fair either...
It’s absurd to argue that a person with CAIS, or even PAIS, is not at a marked disadvantage compared to other males. In fact, in CAIS, you’d be hard pressed to come up with biologically plausible reasons that a 46 XY CAIS person would have an any advantage over XX females.
Again, the scenario I referenced is a real one. This is an adolescent girl who has lived every second of her life as a girl. Her birth certificate says female. She does not complete normal female puberty and ultimately is found to be a person who is 46 XY CAIS at age 14. She’s tall and coordinated and has been a star of her youth girls basketball teams. She’s now a HS freshman and looking forward to playing freshman or JV girls basketball. There are only girls and boys teams at the HS of course. She has no chance to make the boys team, and why would she try? She’s a girl. None of her classmates or teachers or coaches know that she’s XY. Nobody would suspect it. She and her parents didn’t suspect it until the doctors told them. They were shocked, saddened upon learning this news.
Are there people on this thread who would tell this young woman she cannot play girls HS basketball if they became aware of her biological back story? In practical terms, her medical records are private and there is no hormone testing or karyotyping required to play HS basketball. Would people want to put a system in place to “catch” athletes like this young woman. Ok, say she doesn’t have CAIS, but PAIS. Does this matter? What would you do? How would you distinguish the two? Insist she release the results of her AR genetic test?
This post was edited 6 minutes after it was posted.
The most logical solution would be to have only an open category in track and field. And to just have more heats based on ability/previous performance and not gender. Everyone would then be happy and awards would be given based on performance and not gender ...
Well, the poster I was responding to (Sancreed) asked the question because you wrote (in #28):
It may seem immaterial to you, but that didn't stop you from writing the above. That was in response to the question of whehter there should be a separate category for athletes with XY DSD, like a para category. If you are uninterested in that question, then it is immaterial to you. But then, why do you need to comment on something you consider unimportant?
Is it good as long as athletes with XY DSD don't compete in the women's category? Or is it important to you whether they compete in the men's category or their own category? If it is the matter, why does it matter to you?
Whether it would be best and fairest for XY DSD athletes with conditions like Semenya's and Chand's to get their own category, compete in para sports, or compete with the rest of the male sex in a division called either the men's or open category is not for me to say. Persons with those conditions need to figure out the approach they think is best and then campaign and lobby for it. That's what women had to do.
I simply want to see an end to the policies which allow males with DSDs like XY 5-ARD and PAIS as well as males who make claims about having special gender identities to gain eligibility in the female category.
However, I do think it's worth repeating that XY DSD athletes with conditions like Semenya's and Chand's would probably have a very hard time convincing the people in charge of para sports that they should be in para sports too. Because none of the XY DSD athletes who are now in women's track and other sports like elite international soccer in such significant numbers are physically disabled, particularly or at least not in any way that has any bearing on sports performance.
Saying that "persons with those conditions need to figure out what's best and campaign and lobby for it, that's what women had to do", is a false equivalence. A group representing a fraction of one percent hardly has the lobbying power and campaign potential of a group representing over fifty percent of the population, does it?
You seem to be carrying a grievance on behalf of women in general, rather than being minded to focus on the specific aspects of this case when it comes to overall fairness. I largely agree with you. However, your "So what? Tough luck! Suck it up!" attitude towards DSD athletes who have no control over their situation undermines your case.
In the current social climate in which World Athletics has to operate, an approach like yours is hardly an option. They have to be seen as, at least, trying to find an equitable solution. A "just ban them all or let them compete with men" policy is simply never going to happen.
It’s absurd to argue that a person with CAIS, or even PAIS, is not at a marked disadvantage compared to other males. In fact, in CAIS, you’d be hard pressed to come up with biologically plausible reasons that a 46 XY CAIS person would have an any advantage over XX females.
The vast majority of DSD elite athletes, and trans athletes, are at a major biological advantage compared to biological women, having gone through male puberty. WA own research confirms this and they admit it. And you are trotting out an edge case to set policy which will undermine sports for 50% of the world's population.
“A curious feat of alchemy…as scientific rigour gives way to a fudge worthy of a master confectioner.” Good article by @seaningle captures reality of World Athletics’ choice (and it’s a choice, no fudge there) to allow male advantage into women’s sport https://t.co/WyBvqqnmPT
They know this policy does not create a level playing field for women. It's not based in science.
Two other noteworthy sections of the article. First, recognition that this policy doesn’t level the playing field. So they know, but that knowledge is not enough to overcome their litigation fear. Second, talk and commitment to consultation, but the loudest voice isn’t women’s pic.twitter.com/iny5sAMeNZ
The vast majority of DSD elite athletes, and trans athletes, are at a major biological advantage compared to biological women, having gone through male puberty. WA own research confirms this and they admit it. And you are trotting out an edge case to set policy which will undermine sports for 50% of the world's population.
No, the vast majority of DSD people are NOT elite athletes. Right? Is your rule that they be forced to compete as XY males at all levels of competition or are you limiting your opinion to elites with androgen responsive DSDs? It’s not an edge case, it’s a real story. Answer the question. What would you tell this young person who has 46 XY CAIS and wants to play girls HS basketball?
The vast majority of DSD elite athletes, and trans athletes, are at a major biological advantage compared to biological women, having gone through male puberty. WA own research confirms this and they admit it. And you are trotting out an edge case to set policy which will undermine sports for 50% of the world's population.
No, the vast majority of DSD people are NOT elite athletes. Right? Is your rule that they be forced to compete as XY males at all levels of competition or are you limiting your opinion to elites with androgen responsive DSDs? It’s not an edge case, it’s a real story. Answer the question. What would you tell this young person who has 46 XY CAIS and wants to play girls HS basketball?
I don't know. I am more empathetic towards dsd athletes than transgender athletes as the issue is complex. An across the board HS policy would be difficult to administrate, if you are speaking of the US.
I would say she should not however compete at elite levels (olympics) and NCAA in the female category, and should not be eligible to set female records at these levels if she went through male puberty. Again, Para sport could be an option. There are other solutions than just opening up the women's category.
Has anyone done any research on why DSD athletes all seem to come from a concentrated part of the world? I don't know of any European DSD T&F athletes competing at the elite level or anyone from the Americas.
I'm not going to pretend to know every DSD athlete but the only ones I've heard of are from sub-Saharan Africa or the Indian sub-continent. Are certain ethnicity more prone to the mutation that causes DSD or are other regions self-selecting our of elite sport?
Has anyone done any research on why DSD athletes all seem to come from a concentrated part of the world? I don't know of any European DSD T&F athletes competing at the elite level or anyone from the Americas.
I'm not going to pretend to know every DSD athlete but the only ones I've heard of are from sub-Saharan Africa or the Indian sub-continent. Are certain ethnicity more prone to the mutation that causes DSD or are other regions self-selecting our of elite sport?
I don't know. I am more empathetic towards dsd athletes than transgender athletes as the issue is complex. An across the board HS policy would be difficult to administrate, if you are speaking of the US.
I would say she should not however compete at elite levels (olympics) and NCAA in the female category, and should not be eligible to set female records at these levels if she went through male puberty. Again, Para sport could be an option. There are other solutions than just opening up the women's category.
Ok, I’ll take that as a yes. You would allow her to compete on her HS girls team. Thank you for recognizing that with DSD athletes, these are all edge cases and it seems each unique situation should be adjudicated based on the medical circumstances, level of competition, options for alternative competition. BTW, I don’t think there’s any plausible biological argument that a person who is 46 XY CAIS has a biological advantage over a person who is 46 XX. IMO if this young woman unexpectedly was good enough to play in college or the WNBA, she should be allowed, but we can leave that debate for another day. I don’t think it’s fair for Semenya or Niyonsaba to race, but I also push back on this notion that if there’s a Y chromosome, you are a man full stop and must compete with boys/men regardless of the circumstances.
Whether it would be best and fairest for XY DSD athletes with conditions like Semenya's and Chand's to get their own category, compete in para sports, or compete with the rest of the male sex in a division called either the men's or open category is not for me to say. Persons with those conditions need to figure out the approach they think is best and then campaign and lobby for it. That's what women had to do.…
They already did and significant changes have accordingly already happened over the last decade at WA mediated by CAS, all while you were composing ubergigantohumongously long posts feeling pretend sorry for them on an anonymous board that hardly any decision maker cares about.
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