Thoughts on why recreational runners don't improve and how they can

I didn't do this every day. I think you *could* but masters runners need to be both warmed up and still loose to do sprint-level speed without hamstring injuries. If you did them at the end of a run, your muscles have loosened at the start and then tightened up again by the end. You'd have to go through the loosening up drills again, I think, or run the risk of a hamstring pull.

You could probably do it in the early part of a run, though. For example, do a warm up jog, several dynamic stretches, and then do one of these short high-speed drills for 5 seconds followed by 2-3 minutes of easy jogging in the early part of your run. I personally wouldn't do it that way.

When I first tried this approach, it worked amazingly well, so I thought, "More is better, right?" Wrong. I was too enthusiastic and pulled a hamstring, sprained a healing gluteus tendon, and three old foot injuries flared up.

I learned three things from this early aggressiveness.

- Warm up. Then, warm up more. Do lots of drills, especially hamstring.

- Wear the right shoes. The pounding on the track was really rough on my old foot injuries.

- Stop with gas in the tank. My entire competitive career has been the opposite. I've found that little injuries tend to flare up on the last rep of these high speed drills, so I don't leave it all on the track when doing high speed.

Keep in mind that I'm a very old and very good 400/800m runner coming back from a very extended period of being unable to run. I'm not you. You'll need to modify this approach to fit your situation and see how it works. I'd love to hear what you learn from trying it.

Laughing at all these warriors saying people aren't tough enough, not enduring enough pain. Show me your gold medals tough guys. No self reflection at all. Or maybe a lack of commitment, eye of the tiger?

Let the downvotes rain, I don't care. Just had to be pointed out. Bring it on, oh keepers of the pain.

+1

Great idea.

I like the "flying" part. Accelerate into the fast 30m, so maybe take 30m getting up to speed.

And yet he is 100% right. People complain constantly about stuff and make zero effort to change. They don't really care about being faster as much as they do complaining.

Ask those people who are frustrated with their times if they are running an hour/day and doing 2 workouts/week. The answer is nope. They are happy doing what they are doing.

Is there some 5k guy who needs ROM work? Probably. But for every one of them there are a 100 that need another 20mpw and probably 900 that need some 5k intervals once/week for a couple months...

Interesting observation. I may add more strides. Here is what I am doing. First, I started running 50 years ago and am 63 years old. I ran XC in high school and college Div 3, but never better than 4th man on a team and was not fast by anything close to Let’s Run standards. But I love running. I was a good club runner and have done 50 marathons and 5 Ironman distance triathlons back in the 80s.

That is where I ran into problems. I have a structural problem on my left side with femoral anteversion and tibial torsion- so my knee points in- knock kneed- and my foot points out. It is awkward and as a result, it may be the reason I was not a particularly fast runner. My lower back started hurting from locking into my pedals. It really was my hip getting jammed. For many years, I continued running on my bad hip. Then 12 years ago, I could run no further, researched, figured I had a torn hip labrum, and got surgery. I also put on 50 pounds of weight when not running.

Unfortunately after every run, I would limp for days or even a week or more. I eventually got into ElliptiGO riding to keep me sane and fit. I kept trying to run, but still my hip limited me. Last year, I got almost 300 miles in (best year since the surgery) and some local weekly 5ks and two 7 mile races. I even rejoined my running club and started doing track workouts. I found I felt best after running faster on the track.

in June this year, for other reasons, I decided to try a plant based diet. All of a sudden-within days- I found I could run every day. I went from 10 mile weeks to 20, 30, 40, and even a 50 mile week with a fun 19 Mille run. My races times started coming down. I have lost 45 pounds and feel great. I still have imbalances and some hip soreness, but each week I feel better. I believe this is because I stopped eating sugar and processed foods which cut down the inflammation in my hip and other joints.

My race times keep improving and I feel comfortable racing hard. In the past month, I ran two timed 5000m track time trials, both under 21 minutes. I also ran two 1/2 marathons in 1:36 and then 1:34. I see more improvement ahead. Someone asked this week, on Strava, why my training times seem slow 9-11 minute miles and then I race so fast competitively. I answered that I do weekly track workouts- for speed- as well as weekly club trail 5ks and that the speed work is essential.

Now thinking of your post. I really don’t warm up for workouts, on the road or track, or even for racing. All I might do is ride my ElliptiGO to the track or race and do some short strides at a quick pace. This seems to warm me up and remind my muscles to run fast. I am guessing, they also are extending my shortened stride- along with all the faster running I do on the track. I may need to add them more during workouts. I think they help a lot.

I am having fun running again and a lot of my mostly running friends have their eyes open and can’t believe I am running and racing faster again as they though I was completely done for as a runner. Good topic.

Good post. I totally agree. Earlier, CalicoCat wrote:

We are all knowledgeable runners here. We know those "10 things" recreational runners could do to get better. The problems are that these recreational runners have a limited time to devote to running; they like those jazzercise classes; they don't want to run 50 mpw... so what can they do in the time they are willing to devote to running to get better?

We all know that there are lots of things they could do... more miles, intervals, tempos, etc... but could short high speed drills be a step that has been overlooked in traditional recreational runner training?

Here's an analogy comparing the legs to a rubber band. What do you think of it?

Take a rubber band and pull it to the point that it just begins to stretch. It requires no effort to do that limited range of motion (ROM). Let's call that "no effort" ROM a 12 minute/mile pace.

Now, stretch it a little more. It requires a lot more effort. Let's call that a 10 minute/mile pace. If you don't go past that point, that 10 min/mile pace is hard and is going to remain hard for a long time. It's going to take the runner a very long time to train to get to 10 minute miles.

Now, quickly stretch the rubber band a LOT more. It requires more effort, but it's over really fast. Let's call that a 5 min/mile pace. Do that many times.

Now, stretch the rubber band at what we called the 10min/mile pace. It's much easier because the rubber band has adapted to the greater range of motion! It requires less effort to move at that 10min/mile pace.

Unfortunately, a rubber band can't grow so it gets weaker as a result of this extended range of motion. However, muscles CAN grow so they get stronger.

The result is a double benefit for recreational runners. 1. Their muscles have adapted to a wider range of motion so that new range of motion requires less effort. 2. Their muscles have simultaneously gotten stronger so now they run longer at high speed and at their 10min/mile pace.

Obviously, 12 min/mile runners aren't going to instantly become 10min/mile runners, but runners who have plateaued at 12min/mile for months might be able to move to 11:30 in a few months.

I'm skipping a lot technical stuff about tendon elasticity, etc. to keep it simple. I'm also not addressing the risks of injury, again to keep it brief.

Thoughts?

First, congratulations on your comeback! That's inspirational. With your permission, I might use that story in a book I'm thinking of writing for masters/recreational runners.

Inflammation is a HUGE factor in almost all age-related diseases. I take a lot of supplements to reduce inflammation, but your post reminds me that I should refocus on inflammatory foods, at least until this hip injury heals.

The ElliptiGo moves through a wider range of motion than what I call "the marathon shuffle" that most recreational runners use so I could see it being part of the warmup.

You're a role model for healthy aging! Keep it up!

Good for you that the diet change worked in your case, but there is no scientific evidence to suggest that plant-based diets have such dramatic transformative properties or that, if you are otherwise healthy and calorically and nutritionally balanced, sugar is bad because once broken down inside your body, there is little difference between table sugar and sugar in a potato or banana; furthermore, contrary to some “pop science” beliefs, sugar is not known to cause inflammation.

The benefits people experience from diet changes are almost always because they eat fewer calories with the restrictions they self-impose.

Thar's ok. It's a peeve of mine. The only time I've ever experienced pain while running is when I smacked into a steeplechase barrier.

I did around 6 of these today at the end of an easy run. The last mile of most of my runs is on a levee path. I don't have much of a clue as to how far 30m is so i decided to just count 30 strides. Will skip tomorrow. I think the benefit is that it will increase the ability to push off. as we age, we seem to lose all power! I want to also incorporate some skipping and other drills.

I see a few posts mentioning that most folks aren't willing to push through the discomfort of running hard. Additionally, I think many people (including dedicated runners) aren't willing to spend the time fixing biomechanical issues because it's not only boring but also requires dialing back the training. I was one of those folks unwilling to dial back the training. Then I couldn't run for three years and (8 surgeries later) was forced to start at square one.

Things like gait analysis at a university and lots of physical therapy aren't cheap, but totally worth it. Many boring hours spent doing targeted strengthening and "running" with one leg on and one off the treadmill at 3 mph repatterning my foot strike and how my muscles went through a running stride. Then the slow build up starting with 5 x 15 second running. Been back to running 3+ years now and injury-free.

To get back to the original post, I think short, fast intervals are a key factor that many recreational runners are missing, but also recognizing that there are two sides to the coin - you must push through the discomfort on fast days AND accept a slow pace on easy days. Personally, I've found that the faster I run on fast days, the slower I run on easy days. When I (re)started running, everything was 8 min/mile. When I started switching up my runs, faster days eventually became 7ish mile pace and easy days became 9ish mile pace. During the summer months, adding sprint workouts like 200m repeats in 40 sec (female in my 40s), means easy runs approach 10 min/mile.

Maybe it's just me but seems off if you can run 200m in 32 seconds but mile repeats are at 9:00 pace. Might be time to add some longer runs, even run/walk

I have often wondered that an older runnger coming back from a long layoff might be best served shuffling at a pedestrian pace untin heart rate gets to 70 percent mhr, then running at 10k effort til hr gets to 80 percent mhr, then walking til it recovers to 70 percent. Repeat for an hour. Interested in hearing others opinions

You are correct. But even a lot of faster runners don't really understand how they managed to run faster, because they are stuck to the same mental mistake. They think of running like jumping from one foot to the other.

You can see it on any "super shoe" thread. Surely a thing that makes you bounce up will save you energy or make you go faster or something? Nope. The only real secret is having an efficient gait cycle that allows your striking foot to be going faster relative to your own center of mass. If you want to run 15mph, your footstrike needs to be at -15mph relative to you or you will slow down.

Forward propulsion does not matter. Upward force does not matter - in fact too much bounce is counterproductive because it lowers your cadence. What matters is being able to run with the open stride that increases the top speed of your feet, as efficiently as possible. And for a sprinter, to do this at much higher cadence than most people can.

You are past age 75 are you not? It has little to with rec runner status.

It's an interesting point you make, and I would agree that range of motion is hugely important, not only in direct performance, but also preventing injury.

Your example of workout times, however, tells me that you don't lack speed (and by implication, range of motion) but rather endurance.

If you can do 200m repeats in 32, then you should be running much faster than 9 minute mile reps.

Hell, running repeat 32s for me would be pushing it, and if I were to do repeat miles at 5k pace, I'd be looking at running 5:20s - 10k pace would be 5:35s.

If I can throw in my two cents:

The main reason recreational runners don't improve is that they don't train consistently enough and/or they don't add in new stimuli once they plateau.

There's also the very common cycle of overtraining and injury. Overtraining in the relative sense - in that they've often gone from doing nothing, to doing 3 hour long runs, because that's what looks good on Strava. They then spend the rest of the week sore and nursing a bunch of potential injuries, until their next big 3 hour run, or perhaps they'll change it up by throwing in an 80 minute "greyzone" run. Neither of which actually give you any bang-for-your-buck in terms of a training effect, but hey, it sure gets you a lot of kudos from other water-bladder wearing, compression sock-clad park runners.

If they stuck to a plan that addressed the right energy systems, all while incrementally increasing the volume or intensity of their training, they would see improvement - but that doesn't happen as often as it should.

Hey, if I’m not mistaken, I remember your posts from some 10-11 years ago. That was the time when you went thru the labrum surgery, correct? I was particularly interested at the video one, because I too was suffering from what I suspected was a torn labrum. (I never had it checked out, though, and still suffer from occasional pain.)

Anywho, looks like you’ve come back and are doing well!

* I was particularly interested at the time…

(autocorrect error?)

I agree with everything you said. And the part about my training is correct as well. My short term goal was to improve in the 200 by June so endurance wasn't a concern. I'm working on it now, but that's getting off the point that I'm making.

Your points about training that I've quoted above are absolutely correct. The problem is that, as I said before, there are millions of recreational runners who don't want to devote the time to run more. They don't want to give up their yoga or jazzercise or pilates class. They don't want to follow a serious training plan. Let's call these millions of recreational runners "Marathon Shufflers" because their running form is the marathon shuffle... no range of motion, no power in the legs.

Now, among Marathon Shufflers, there are two sub-groups. Sub-Group A runs for health, weight control, fun, etc. They don't care about time... and that's perfectly okay. That's not the demographic I'm addressing here. I'm addressing the millions in Sub-Group B.

Sub-Group B is similar to A, but they do want to improve their times. It's a dilemma because they're not willing to devote more time to running or to follow a serious training plan, but they still want to get better. They're looking for the one thing they could do that doesn't require more time, doesn't require them to lose weight, and doesn't require them to change to a serious training plan.

My premise... and I'm not sure it's true so I started this thread to ask for opinions... is that the one thing they could do that Marathon Shufflers aren't doing is short, very fast near-sprints of 20-30m with a flying start.