How often should a sub 3hr 50-60mpw marathon runner do 20 mile long runs?

round and round: Thanks for sharing those details. While our overall philosophies are very similar, there are some differences in our methods. I have NEVER targeted marathon pace in training. Long runs are easy; medium long runs are most often progressions that might finish at MP. Shorter progression runs might approach 15K race pace. Track sessions generally at 5K goal pace.

Like you, though, if I'm training, I'm racing. Or, more accurately, vice-versa -- unless racing, I'm not motivated to train.

Your PRs are faster. My best was 2:40, averaging 45 mpw for 16 weeks, maxing at 68. But those 16 weeks also included a lot of racing, including two marathons (week 6 and week 11), and a 5K PR in week 15.

Run or Buildup to 26.2 miles as 6.2@HMpace, 10@ MP, 10 at 15 secs slower than MP every week and rest easy to make up your mileage.

Add every third week or 4th as downweek 20% less of your total volume.

If not injury prone do last 5-10 at MP pace.

I always did long runs as a lower mileage runner, just not very many.

For the 10 weeks prior to my 2:54 PR (at 51) I ran 70 days and missed 7 days - so 1 day off every 10 days on average. I ran 620 miles total, or 62 mpw at overall avg pace of 8:23. In those 10 weeks I ran a 19 four weeks out (8:38 pace), a 22 miler 5 weeks out (7:43 pace), a 20 miler 6 weeks out (7:56 pace), and a 20 mile 8 weeks out (7:53 pace). Also ran two half marathons in that period and my final real run was a 10K race at 10 days out (38:37). I trained similar to that for my prior 3 marathons which were all between 2:55 and 2:58. Maybe I shoulda tried something different but I think that was the best I could do at the time.

WiTuLo wrote:

I always did long runs as a lower mileage runner, just not very many.

For the 10 weeks prior to my 2:54 PR (at 51) I ran 70 days and missed 7 days - so 1 day off every 10 days on average. I ran 620 miles total, or 62 mpw at overall avg pace of 8:23. In those 10 weeks I ran a 19 four weeks out (8:38 pace), a 22 miler 5 weeks out (7:43 pace), a 20 miler 6 weeks out (7:56 pace), and a 20 mile 8 weeks out (7:53 pace). Also ran two half marathons in that period and my final real run was a 10K race at 10 days out (38:37). I trained similar to that for my prior 3 marathons which were all between 2:55 and 2:58. Maybe I shoulda tried something different but I think that was the best I could do at the time.

I feel like a 2:54, at age 51, on 60 mpw, with a 10k of 38:37 is pretty darn awesome. It looks to me like your experience allowed you to have things very dialed in.

Allen1959 wrote:

round and round: Thanks for sharing those details. While our overall philosophies are very similar, there are some differences in our methods. I have NEVER targeted marathon pace in training. Long runs are easy; medium long runs are most often progressions that might finish at MP. Shorter progression runs might approach 15K race pace. Track sessions generally at 5K goal pace.

Like you, though, if I'm training, I'm racing. Or, more accurately, vice-versa -- unless racing, I'm not motivated to train.

Your PRs are faster. My best was 2:40, averaging 45 mpw for 16 weeks, maxing at 68. But those 16 weeks also included a lot of racing, including two marathons (week 6 and week 11), and a 5K PR in week 15.

Allen1959 - Interesting. I always found most success in the HM and marathon when spending a lot of time training at the specific pace (or slightly faster) so it became normal and comfortable-ish. When i had my best races, I feel I was looking at my GPS watch the least, but maybe that's unrelated. However, the progression run is my favorite type of run and usually left me feeling the most confident and legs the least trashed...so you seem to have a solid strategy, especially at the 15k sessions. I probably would have agreed with a lot of your workouts and enjoyed doing them more than what I was doing!

The HM and marathon are my least favorite distances to train for, so it's very possible I was looking at it the wrong way. I was a 800m -1500m guy in college who ran the 4x400 more than the races above a 1500m. When training for 5k's, I almost never ran tempos or intervals longer than 1200m - it was very speed-based (usually 400m intervals on short rest) because i could once split 48 in the 4x4 and was efficient at the pace i coudl race a 5k...but my lungs.....

I should also say I never went above 62 miles for a single week in any build up for road races, so the average was pretty close to the median week.

OP here. This has turned in to a good thread; thanks guys. I was thinking some more about it, and looking at the question another way:

Assuming for the moment that someone runs around 7:15 to 7:45 pace for their long runs, and that these are adequately supported by faster work, marathon pace etc... what do you get from runs in the 2:30 range that you don't get in the 1:45-2:00 range?

My understanding is that most of the aerobic adaptions come in the first hour, by 90mins these have mostly been maximised, and by 2hrs we are probably at 99% of all the benefit available.

So are those extra long runs only helping from the perspective of 1. getting your legs used to the pounding, 2. getting your body used to operating in a low carb environment, and 3. for the psychological reasons? This is not to say that these factors are unimportant - it's just that I've tended to always feel that 90-120mins gets me "fitter", whereas 2:30hr just makes me more fatigued; and I'm trying to understand why this is; and how it might affect how I approach the marathon

I like the compilation of 'long run thought' that this guy has put together. Personally, I think that, for marathon running, the 1 hour mark is where the adaptation begins.

https://fellrnr.com/wiki/Long_Run

Bumping this thread as I have just over 8 weeks until my 3rd full marathon. Goal is 3:19.

I just ran a half marathon race last weekend in 1:31.

Wanted some perspective on how many 18-20 mile long runs I should schedule in these next 8 weeks (6 weeks with a 2 week taper) and what does my 1:31 half marathon indicate for my potential marathon time?

Leading up to the 50+ marathons I raced I would only do two 20 mile runs or 3 hours what ever came first. About 6 weeks and 4 weeks out from race day. You have to find what works for you unfortunately it's by trial and error.

Two is exactly what I was going to say, so glad the plan says two. Generally you don't want to go over 3 hours in a training long run. So for a sub 3 marathon racer you're looking at a longest long run of around 22 or 23 miles around 8 flat pace, and maybe one more a few weeks before that longest one around 20 miles. And then a couple other long runs around 16-18 miles that might have a workout portion within it, and lots of easy long runs in the 15-17 range.