Is CV training superior to traditional VO2 max training?

quit trolling you clown. You’ve got incredible training to execute and not explain to the audience here, yet maintaining this air like you know anything about physiology.

How do any of the claims make Coes training impossible? Im asking about a real program here, not your supposed ‘training’

Not ‘impossible’ just irrelevant to this conversation.

Everyone here is talking about the training regimes of winners

Well yes, in laymen's terms this all what "Running Economy" is. Running Economy is efficiency....so energy needed to run a certain pace. COACH WIZARD says "reduced energy consumption at pace". It's all the same thing though. An efficiency improvement. Now the efficiency could from dealing with higher lactate levels or being able to have heart and lung efficiency (efficiency in blood flow with oxygen to the muscles with capillary beds and at the cellular level with mitochondria ), efficiency in burning fat as a fuel, and efficiency in movement patterns). Now that last point is touching on is the "Running Form" component of Running Economy. You move better with developed neuromuscular pathways and you get better at running around your specific race pace as your body adapts to moving at that pace (or slightly faster than that pace). "Speed Training" to get all slower paces to feel more comfortable in a sense. It's another reason why you'd do Strides or gym work or all-out 10 sec Hill Sprints with full recovery. But the kicker is you may improve Running Economy at 5km race pace (with a lot of 400s at 5km pace) and become more efficient at that, while at the same time your Running Economy at Marathon Pace might actually diminish. Usually not. But it depends on the runner and what other workouts they are doing in the full Training Plan. COACH WIZARD also doesn't seem to acknowledge the concepts of periodization or diminishing returns though....so there's that....

Mitochondriac wrote:

COACH WIZARD 1 wrote:

[quote]

All in all, though the The main purpose with the 20 x 400m at 5 k race pace is to make the energy process more effective at this pace by repeating the workout often ( mostly weekly year round). What also contributes to the reduced energy consumption at the pace is the continuously improved biomechanics. As long as one keeps the reps relatively short ( 200- 600m ) it will just contribute to improve the runner week by week, month by month, year by year , until the runners optimum performances will be reached.In chatting with Ingebrigtsen`s Norwegian physiologist L-I Tjelta he just confirmed to me this is the way to look at it.

Isn't that true of any specific pace training?

I am not aware of any study showing that high lactate levels destroy/damage mitochondria or high levels of acid in the blood destroys/damage mitochondria. Would love to see such a paper. More realistic to me is the muscle damage theory as well as the theory that is is the high performance itself (for whatever reason) which damages/destroys mitochondria. But i guess we have to agree that there seems to be practical evidence to it, for whatever reason behind. That has a lot of implications. With that thoughts

thresholdftw wrote:

Treshold training is superior to both. As in actual treshold, and especially double treshold. And by actual treshold I mean 3.5 or below in lactate.

seems to me a very good strategy. Keeping the damage low, but still improving.

However, i would add a short specific period near/at race pace very close to the race event.

What do you think about the argument that short reps (like 400m reps) are not the best method of improving VO2max? The reps seem too short (even when resting back to 120bpm) to hit anywhere close to 180bpm for most runners.

On the other hand, if you did 8x1000 at current or goal 5k pace, you'd likely get close to 180bpm within ~800 meters.

red_dog wrote:

What do you think about the argument that short reps (like 400m reps) are not the best method of improving VO2max? The reps seem too short (even when resting back to 120bpm) to hit anywhere close to 180bpm for most runners.

On the other hand, if you did 8x1000 at current or goal 5k pace, you'd likely get close to 180bpm within ~800 meters.

Personally, when I do 400m reps at 5k pace on 1 min rec, my HR never drops to 120, and later in the session, I'm up to 180+ within 200-250 meters of each rep. Altitude (6,000ft) contributes to this, for sure, but I'm adjusting the paces for altitude already. Probably should adjust the recovery as well.

Anyway, HR isn't the only measure of effort. Blood lactate and oxygen uptake are going to stay significantly elevated during the reps and the short rest ensures they never drop too much ESPECIALLY if you are jogging the rest period. The idea with the 400s is that blood lactate never gets too high or too low during the session, unlike during longer intervals at VO2 max, where you would see a more spiky HR graph (and lactate profile) mirroring the longer work and rest bouts.

Sage,

You have to admit that many elites (current and past) don't or didn't follow periodization.

Many followed the same weekly or biweekly schedule with outstanding performance

Yes they had bad races but so do who follow periodization.

"However, i would add a short specific period near/at race pace very close to the race event."

--> No one said otherwise

"With that thoughts

thresholdftw wrote:

Treshold training is superior to both. As in actual treshold, and especially double treshold. And by actual treshold I mean 3.5 or below in lactate.

seems to me a very good strategy. Keeping the damage low, but still improving."

--> Thats exactly what we've already been advocating here previously

"But i guess we have to agree that there seems to be practical evidence to it, for whatever reason behind. That has a lot of implications."

--> For whatever reason, there's a reason, anecdotal and scientific. Here's just one of many:

https://physoc.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1113/JP278930

Look up "lactate acidosis" and "mitochondria"

Interesting. Maybe I have been doing my 400 VO2max intervals too slow! Do you always jog the rest?

Nobody in this thread gets it.

Run a ton of miles, most of them easy.

Run two workouts a week, most of them controlled tempo runs.

Run some fast stuff every once in a while while staying smooth.

Be consistent over time.

Race.

I mix it up. Sometimes I walk 60 seconds, sometimes I jog 30 seconds/stand 30 seconds. I don't normally jog a full 60 seconds. What is your max HR/what percentage of that are you hitting towards the end of your later reps/how many reps are you doing?

"Nobody in this thread gets it.

Run a ton of miles, most of them easy.

Run two workouts a week, most of them controlled tempo runs.

Run some fast stuff every once in a while while staying smooth.

Be consistent over time.

Race."

Exactly what everyone in this thread is advocating, so yeah sure, this as well

shirtboy2021 wrote:

"Nobody in this thread gets it.

Run a ton of miles, most of them easy.

Run two workouts a week, most of them controlled tempo runs.

Run some fast stuff every once in a while while staying smooth.

Be consistent over time.

Race."

Exactly what everyone in this thread is advocating, so yeah sure, this as well

Everyone in this thread is trying to make a $30 cheeseburger -- you still don't get it

kajRNk;jeBRALFK wrote:

Run a ton of miles, most of them easy.

Run two workouts a week, most of them controlled tempo runs.

Run some fast stuff every once in a while while staying smooth.

Be consistent over time.

Race.

Well said

Ok first off, this debate is not going to go anywhere without talking about a specific event.

Secondly, no type of training is "superior" to another. Everything from sprinting to the easiest of recovery jogging has a place in runners training. They also have a different purpose. The purpose of CV training, which for easiness I'll just call 10k pace, has a completely different purpose than vo2max, which again is about 3km pace.

If you want to improve your vO2 max, you should most likely use vO2 max pace. There's some complication with 3k pace being too aggressive, so instead going to 5k pace as it also raises vo2, but thats a completely different debate.

If you want to improve 10k pace, go run at 10k pace!

It's really not that complicated.

kajRNk;jeBRALFK wrote:

Nobody in this thread gets it.

Run a ton of miles, most of them easy.

Run two workouts a week, most of them controlled tempo runs.

Run some fast stuff every once in a while while staying smooth.

Be consistent over time.

Race.

True

But this doesn’t get people to charge large amounts of money for online coaching. Also it doesn’t sell books.

"Diminishing returns" is a concept in running training that occurs if one doesn`t know how to properly calibrate the different parameters of continuous development correctly. If you know that Art of coaching/training ,"Diminishing returns " is a zero concept.

"Periodization" is a concept in running training without absolute necessity to achieve individual optimal ability. What is most crucial to the outcome is which factors are emphasized and that they are carried out in sufficient quantities and that they interact effectively against the set goals.

shirtboy2021 wrote:

"Nobody in this thread gets it.

Run a ton of miles, most of them easy.

Run two workouts a week, most of them controlled tempo runs.

Run some fast stuff every once in a while while staying smooth.

Be consistent over time.

Race."

Exactly what everyone in this thread is advocating, so yeah sure, this as well

Everyone in this thread is trying to make a $30 cheeseburger -- you still don't get it

If you say so boomer

shirtboy2021 wrote:

Look up "lactate acidosis" and "mitochondria"

Lol. What would we do here without you?