WTF: Can most of you actually squat 1.5+ times body weight?

I'm not interested in getting stronger, I just want to be fit. I might have started lifting 30 or 40 pounds but at this point I won't go above 80 as 80 is enough and at certain times of the year tough on my back and shoulders anyway.

Many people go out and run 8 minute miles without the intention of getting faster. Many people do the same running loop in the same amount of time with no thought to go faster.

I'm not "old" but I'm old enough to put my ego aside and I work strictly for health. I do my "easy strength" routine and I also grab a few bands of different tension depending how I feel that day.

Thanks for those pointers to strength standards. Makes me feel much better. Looks like I’m respectively untrained, novice, and likely nearly intermediate on deadlifts, squats, and bench press, which figures because I’ve almost never done deadlifts, started weighted squats only a few months back, and have been bench pressing for many years but never even trying to increase beyond 75% of body weight for 10-20 reps. For 1RM, I can indeed bench press body weight and likely some (but still well under 1.5x).

+1 for 5x5 workouts. I didn't make any real gains in the gym until I cut out the fluff and did Squat, Bench/OHP/Weighted Dips, and Deadlift/Rows/Weighted Chin Ups for 5x5, adding 5 lbs each workout. The workouts take less than an hour and really don't leave you feeling ultra sore or fatigued afterwards, especially the weaker you are.

I certainly couldn't, I weight trained for probably about a year and got to where my one rep max was probably about 105kg for a squat at 85kg and probably about 82.5kg for a bench press.

I didn't have anyone to spot me though so I never tried a true one rep max, got up to 77.5kg for reps bench and 97.5kg for the squat. I got up to about 130kg for deadlift for reps so could have gone a little higher than that for a true one rep max, maybe 140, maybe 135.

I started really low and found my squat and bench really hard to improve on whereas the deadlift just seemed to be improving indefinitely. I don't think I was doing anything particularly wrong, but even with a years training I couldn't squat 1.5 times my bodyweight and couldn't even quite press my bodyweight. The people posting about these things probably self selects for stronger people as it's much more fun to post about being good at something than not!

If I was to do them right now I honestly think I'd max out at at not much more than half my bodyweight for squat and bench. I haven't weight trained in years and I'm naturally just crap at squats. I didn't do 5x5 but I did something very similar and it definitely worked in terms of me getting stronger, I pretty much tripled the point I started from over the year, but was still a wimp compared to a lot of posters!

Coming from a XC program that neglected heavy lifting 1.5x body weight squats seem rather heavy for runners. That being said the former coach had our team do deadlifts and squats 2x per week usually at 1-1.5x body weight. In recent years with a new coach the xc athletes do kettle bell squats instead which are up to 45lbs at most. The team results in XC have gotten significantly worse in recent years as well. Obviously drawing a direct correlation isn't realistic but maybe there is some connection.

Does anyone know what the top D1 programs do in the gym?

I'm strong enough to do it, but I'm too inflexible. When I squat my body folds in half. It's not smart to squat heavy when this happens to you, so at most I'm doing 1x body weight for reps and not going deep enough.

Tortoise wrote:

Coming from a XC program that neglected heavy lifting 1.5x body weight squats seem rather heavy for runners.

…

Does anyone know what the top D1 programs do in the gym?

I think it sounds heavy if you miss the 1RM part (as I first did), i.e., you are expected to be able to do 1.5x body weight (BW) just once, not repeats. My understanding from pop online articles is that if a runner can’t even do 1.5x BW once, then they are leaving running gains on the table because of lack of strength. Much beyond 1.5x, there would be diminishing or no running economy returns.

I’d be curious too about what D1’s typically can squat. Also curious if there are scientific studies on whether/how squat/deadlift’s impact on running economy diminishes (or perhaps even goes negative for distance runners) with increasing 1RM weight.

In any case, I have a long way to build and am actually looking forward to becoming stronger with or without running economy gains.

mimsy wrote:

I'm strong enough to do it, but I'm too inflexible. When I squat my body folds in half. It's not smart to squat heavy when this happens to you, so at most I'm doing 1x body weight for reps and not going deep enough.

If you were strong enough your body wouldn't fold in half...

Squatting is a compound movement. If you have a weak link the chain you will fail.

I can squat about that amount of weight personally.

But as a runner, you don't have to be able to squat or deadlift X amount of weight in order to be the best runner you can be. The force output of a slow squat is completely different than that of general athletic activity. Whether that's running/sprinting, throwing, or jumping. As a runner it is important to be strong, but strength is very relative and can't be measured by a squat or hinge pattern. So what does running strength look like? I break it down into a few things.

Tissue Quality, Stride Power, and Running Mechanics/Form.

Tissue Quality refers to the ability of tendons, muscles, bones, and ligaments to take repetitive loads without becoming overworked and injured. This is probably the most transferable quality from traditional strength training. That's why you see stronger looking runners or runners who had a background in other sports typically stay injury free as long as they are not training like idiots. The problem with this is that traditional powerlifting style strength training doesn't optimally train tissue quality, or any other previously mentioned quality. It also often results in DOMS and the need to recover from this negatively impacts running and can actually instill bad running form which leads to injury. The best way to train tissue for health is big ranges of motion with lighter loads. KneesOverToesGuy is a great example of this. But some great examples of exercises for runners are ATG Split Squats, Seated DB Goodmornings, Seated Calf Raises, Ant Tib Raises, and Russian Curls .

Stride Power refers to how much force are you actually producing efficiently with each stride.

The best way to get a better and stronger side is going to be lots and lots of intentional drills and strides as well as Sprinting, plyometrics, and running on hills.

Sprinting is actually the best way to get strong because your putting thousands of pounds of force through the leg in a single leg stance. Your squat might not go up from it, but its actually the best way for your legs to get stronger. Plyometrics are a great way to get more powerful, but they have a trade off effect. If not used correctly, either too much to soon or with improper form, they can result in injury pretty easily.

Plyos as well as Sprinting also have the effect of allowing your tendons to become stiffer. Which is key for elastic strength, which is the most transferable to high velocity activities. However if your tendons become stiff and it is very easy to develop tendonitis (particularly in the knees, Hamstrings, and Achilles). This is why it is also important to include Full Range of Motion exercises as mentioned earlier.

Hills are basically resistance training for runners, as Arthur Lydiard says, "I want my runners to have the muscles of stags, not lions." This can look like easy runs over hills, Long Hills reps, Hills strides, Hill Sprints, Hill Circuits, Hill Plyos. The list goes on and on. Basically take something you normally do on the flat and do it on a hill and your guaranteed to get stronger and probably faster. I think it was Frank Shorter who said, "Hills are just speedwork in disguise."

There are also several resistance training exercises that result in more strength and power in your stride. For the Hip Flexors-Cable Knee Drives. Glutes-Kettlebell Swings (12-16kg is all you need!!), Quads and Hamstrings- Loaded Half Squat Jumps (Verkhoshansky style) (Starting with just the bar for sets of 20 and evolving to 30-40% of max weight for sets of 10) (Depth Jumps as well, but these are very risky and should be limited to Sprinters IMO)

Running Mechanics/Form is very key to help mitigate injury risk and also with improve efficiency. The focus should be on posture and undoing the effects of sitting in a chair. Posture in this relates to the position and control of the spine. So for runners this means core training (NOT AB TRAINING!), and thoracic mobility/control. Core training can look like a lot different things but should focus around anti-extension, anti-rotation, and Arm Carriage. Thinking running tall without hunching over, leaning back, or throwing your arms around. Exercises that focus on this include Fallouts/Rollouts, Planks with motion while maintain posture, AR Press, Push Pull, Batwings, Facepull with Palms down, Facepull with Palms up (or Y/T/W), and Goblet Squats.

To reverse the effects of sitting one should carry our many of the exercises mentioned in the Tissue Quality section. The target areas should be tight/weak hip flexors, dysfunctional feet, dysfunctional pelvis (Anterior/Posterior Pelvic Tilt), dysfuntional glutes. Include shorts runs on the grass barefoot, and a staggered stance one arm RDL with the back foot elevated slightly, for the glutes (look up Conor Harris).

Lastly maybe you just want to keep squatting and deadlifting without any of the fancy stuff. That's totally cool, and I would recommend you look of Pavel's and Dan Johns "Easy Strength". Very compatible with runners IMO and Dan John speak on it related to runners in two separate Q&As on youtube.

That's my two cents on everything. It's a lot I know. Feel free to shoot me a question or rip me apart.

In regard to typical D-1 runner, we have a poster on this thread who states he is a 4:20 miler and if I recall correctly a 15:30 5K runner. I assume he means 5K XC runner. Said poster says, if I recall he works out with 1 x body weight when squatting and he stated he could squat 1.5 times if he has to. I already stated I believe at least 3/4 of male All-Americans from all levels, D1, D2 & D3 can squat 150% of body weight. A couple of posters on this thread have brought up dead lifts. No practical application to running IMO. Long ago, I played Pop Warner football, DE. Dead lifts aid defensive linemen and linebackers body slamming quarterbacks. Body slamming quarterbacks is no longer allowed so dead lifting is only needed by wrestlers and weight lifters.

Which is fine. We all have different goals.

Alan

EZ10Miler wrote:

Funny, I was reading through some lifting stuff and that's what they said the goal should be and had the same reaction you did, whhhhaaaat?

I'm 150 lbs and there's no way I'm squatting 225.

Really?! In my peak marathon training I could do reps at 225 and I was 155 lbs.

My 4x400 / 4x800 team in high school would all lift together. (49.x / 1:55-57 guys) We’d start at 135 lbs and work to 315. Sets of 8-10. All of us 155-170 lbs. some could bench 200 in the beginning of the season.

And the sprinters used to call us weak, so we figured we were wimps and lifted harder, even during XC. . No injuries and very explosive in the mid distance. I guess it’s important to build that foundation of strength when you’re younger…

Should have also written I couldn’t safely squat 135lbs as a freshman.

It takes time and you have to trust you’ll develop and not be embarrassed in the weight room.

Lets Run Snobs Have No Self Awareness.. wrote:

mimsy wrote:

I'm strong enough to do it, but I'm too inflexible. When I squat my body folds in half. It's not smart to squat heavy when this happens to you, so at most I'm doing 1x body weight for reps and not going deep enough.

If you were strong enough your body wouldn't fold in half...

Squatting is a compound movement. If you have a weak link the chain you will fail.

Why would you doubt me? I can’t do an air squat without folding in half either. I can’t even sit in a squat position. It’s completely a flexibility thing as I said before.

Some good stuff here.

One interesting note that stood out to me given my experience: sprinting for leg strength. Before my recent block of sprint training, I lifted fairy regularly and had built up to about a 250 lb squat. I decided to phase out most of my lifts (kept some arm exercises) for this 10 week training block.

After the 10 weeks, I did a 1 rep max and hit 255 lbs! Improved my deadlift by 25 pounds as well! Not sure if it’s because I’m still relatively new to lifting or because my numbers are still so low, but I feel sprinting, at least when you’re a newbie, does have some carry-over to weights. The only leg exercise I hit was either lunges or step ups once a week or so, with some plyos here and there

I definitely notice this in single leg exercises like pistol squats, lunges, and Bulgarian split squats.

In my weaker days I could still press/squat more than my bodyweight somewhat easily. But I also lift more than other runners and could handle carrying the weight better.

Your most limiting factor is actually not your lower body's capacity, but your upper body's capacity to hold the weight you're trying to squat while trying to squat. Most runners don't have the upper body strength to pick up and hold bodyweight on their shoulders, let alone 1.5x. But their legs can handle it. Try out a leg press machine at the gym and you might be surprised how much weight you can press.

There is no shame in squatting 135 lbs, especially if it is done properly. Everyone has strengths and weaknesses in lifting and I don’t judge any else’s workouts. If some burly guy goes on the treadmill and bangs out 1.5 miles at 10 min pace after his strength workout, I’m not going to make fun of him. I appreciate his effort in doing it.

I’d like to second the 5 x 5 recommendation from early in the thread. I went from 155 - 265 lb squats with this process. It made a tremendous difference. Personally, I would recommend a good 4-6 weeks of 4 day splits with a 3 x 8-10 routine first though. I wouldn’t start out with this type of routine until you know that your connective tissue can handle it. As always, YMMV.

llort_vbo wrote:

There is no shame in squatting 135 lbs, especially if it is done properly. Everyone has strengths and weaknesses in lifting and I don’t judge any else’s workouts. If some burly guy goes on the treadmill and bangs out 1.5 miles at 10 min pace after his strength workout, I’m not going to make fun of him. I appreciate his effort in doing it.

I’d like to second the 5 x 5 recommendation from early in the thread. I went from 155 - 265 lb squats with this process. It made a tremendous difference. Personally, I would recommend a good 4-6 weeks of 4 day splits with a 3 x 8-10 routine first though. I wouldn’t start out with this type of routine until you know that your connective tissue can handle it. As always, YMMV.

It also depends on how you're doing squats. I see a lot of people do half-ass squats with a lot of weight. Doing a full squat really makes a difference.

llort_vbo wrote:

I’d like to second the 5 x 5 recommendation from early in the thread. …

Personally, I would recommend a good 4-6 weeks of 4 day splits with a 3 x 8-10 routine first though. I wouldn’t start out with this type of routine until you know that your connective tissue can handle it. As always, YMMV.

Hi, how are you suggesting one know that their connective tissue can handle it? Is the 3x10 recommendation to be more confident that you can handle it by doing more reps per set or what? I can bench 1RM body weight plus some and have been casually benching for many years ~55-75% BW for 5-20 reps never trying to increase the weight beyond that; have been squatting for just a few months but with dumbbells or single leg squats with no weights; have never deadlifted.

My plan: I’ve started on the 5x5 program with 55% BW, benching 5x5 of which feels like nothing, but squatting does feels like a decent effort, though deadlifting 1x5 (like recommended in the stronglifts program) or even more like 2-or-3x5 strangely doesn’t feel all that tiring like it’s supposed to feel (and I’m watching my form and following deadlift form videos). I’m planning to increase by 2.5 lbs a week until I hit BW on all three, possibly for fewer than 5x5 (or 1x5 deadlift) reps if that’s all I can handle. (Am currently on a doc-advised and self-imposed running break for a few weeks because of a confirmed stress fracture even though I have been pain free for a few weeks, so I might as well use the time to get stronger in between cross training with an indoor bike.)

My current plan is to know if my connective tissue can handle it by observing whether something starts to hurt along the way, :) but that admittedly doesn’t seem like the smartest plan, assuming there is a smarter one. Is there?