NAZ “Elite” - the Boston Massacre

borrowed_idea wrote:

* stipe wrote:

Their shoes are inferior due to outdated foam.

I’m not saying that is the only factor, but it is the reality.

It is amazing given what we know now that they still insist their shoes are just as good as their competitors when it couldn't be farther from the truth. Certainly not why they had a bad performance today, but you gotta wonder if they have VF/AF or adios if they're a minute or two better...

Predictably, the shills at HQ found this thread and tried to turn it into Nike ad. Did all the Nike groups in the world - Jerry's included - get 3 runners across the line in the Trials before Kellyn? They actually had a total of 1 in the top 10.

Anyway, don't know if Rosario has said 'as good as their competitors' but I do remember him saying something to the effect of 'better than anything else they've worn, and Lake Mary Road is the proving ground for that....' when the Rocket X came out. And these are runners who have certainly worn Nike. Anyone watching McKirdy's group at all will realize they are all Nike-shod. There are a few that wear something else for warm-ups and perhaps easy days but in a race, it is obvious what's on their feet. How did any of them do between yesterday and this morning? Why didn't the Vaporfly come through? What was on the feet of both winners this morning?

I want to buy Fauble's book now.

* stipe wrote:

Their shoes are inferior due to outdated foam.

I’m not saying that is the only factor, but it is the reality.

Bingo. They don't have a super shoe. So subtract 2 minutes from their times.

Please, you´re using a sport that only Americans take seriously as an analogy?

I am far from a Nike shill. Haven’t run in Nike in 10 years. I’ve run in carbon shoes from Brooks, ASICS, Saucony, Hoka and New Balance. Of that group, Hoka has inferior foam.

You don't need to be shilling for Nike to point out that Hoka has awful racing shoes. There's a reason every unsponsored athlete wears Vaporfly's and it isn't because they're cheap. Hoka athletes are giving away 1-2 minutes on the start line, everyone knows it. I'm good with NAZ elite telling us that their shoes are great in testing, they have a job to do justifying their sponsorship, but let's not kid ourselves. No one interested in times voluntarily races in Hoka shoes on the roads

What shoes did Scott Fauble wear in 2019. It wasn’t Nike.

Please do not criticize people for putting themselves out there and sharing more about their training, build-up, etc. It’s entertaining and good for the sport, and criticism of groups like NAZ Elite and Tinman Elite for doing so could discourage people from doing it in the future.

yeah, most of the commenters still living in 1950s, life changed outside your basement, better leave those mommas foods and start living boys.

This is how the money is made, they are doing something right if one race warrants 3 pages of nonsense.

I say this every time....I don't understand why people think Rosario is a good coach. Yes, things worked out at the trials but my guess is that they weren't peaking for that race, knowing there was a good chance one of the 3 would make it regardless. Why? Because NAZ tends to run their best 6-8 weeks before it actually counts. I think Aliphine is someone who will run well no matter how you train her and you just have to keep her from getting hurt....which seems like she has been more often than not with NAZ. I don't think the focus should be on the few athletes who have performed well (but it is worth noting WHEN they perform well in their training cycles) and instead look at how short cycles (often due to injury) equal the most success for them and also the sheer number of great runners this training just hasn't worked out for. The success rate seems disproportionately low.

Retirement Time wrote:

What shoes did Scott Fauble wear in 2019. It wasn’t Nike.

If he had, he'd be a 2:07/08 guy right now and could have hung with the top group for longer

The 200th ranked golfer in the world is Kazuki Higa and he made about 250k during the 2021 season. Certainly well off, but definitely not a millionaire. Especially when you take into account that his caddie gets about 10% of his earnings and golfers at his level have to pay for all their travel expenses. From what I've seen in the golf world he probably netted about 100-125k from that 250k.

He may have some sponsorships but at his level they'd be small.

well,, wrote:

holterskolter2 wrote:

Just to offer a better analogy:

It is like being the 200th best 3rd baseman in the world. The 200th best 3rd baseman isn't going to make an MLB major league team. So they can try to go to another country to make their major league team, or they can play in the minors here.

Either way, they're looking at a living wage, maybe about what an average non-stem college grad makes straight out of college, in the 50k range. It is "pro." Elite can be reasonably argued is a term that applies, but some people might hear "elite" and think it means a higher level, along the lines of contending for wins at major meets.

Please, you´re using a sport that only Americans take seriously as an analogy?

In what world are you living that only Americans care about golf or baseball?

The fastest man these days in Northern AZ wearing Hokas happens to be an ultra runner 😅

I'm of the opinion that the shoes are the main factor holding them back. NAZ Elite is an excellent group with a great atmosphere, beast individuals, and an excellent training program.

I'm a major shoe fanatic myself and have spent the last couple years doing a ton of reading and research on shoe tech and design elements and how they affect biomechanics.

My opinion is that HOKA's shoes are obsolete for elite runners, but trainers and racing shoes. With almost no exception, the best runners in the world train in Nike or adidas shoes. Both these brands make primarily high drop shoes in the 8-10mm drop range. Brooks and ASICS are next up in terms of their elite distance athletes, and their trainers are likewise high drop, albeit usually heavier.

HOKA and Skechers are seem glued to the idea of a 4-5mm drop, and all of HOKA's distance runners seem to stop improving within a year of signing with HOKA. Take Tyler Day for example. He graduated NAU as a 13:16 guy on an indoor track, which converted to an outdoor track is arguably as impressive as the collegiate record of 13:08. He stayed in Flagstaff with a similar training model and likely was able to double down on his training more than before. The major difference was that he switched from adidas shoes to HOKA shoes, and he plateaued hard almost instantly.

This is all my opinion of course, but high drop trainers are better for elite athletes and favor improvement. Low drop shoes simply don't get the job done. I enjoy rotating the HOKA Mach 4 into my training, but only to give my feet and certain muscle groups a break from high drop shoes.

I am completely convinced that if HOKA wants to sponsor competitive athletes at the highest level, they need to make 8-10mm drop trainers and start innovating the foams they use. Every version of EVA foam besides certain versions of the Nitro-EVA treatment is completely obsolete in both trainers and racers.

Fauble's time is respectable. He performed just about at the expectation taking into consideration the warm weather. These guys simply are not sub 2:05 guys. They are US elites.

frail martini wrote:

well,, wrote:

Please, you´re using a sport that only Americans take seriously as an analogy?

In what world are you living that only Americans care about golf or baseball?

Baseball is seen as a joke sport outside North America.

Not surprised wrote:

Looking at their workouts it was obvious Fauble wasn't what he has been in the past. Smith has been kind of out of it for a while, I was surprised when he ran 2:09 in Arizona, it seemed like a miracle, and today is more what would be expected. And Rory just tries to hammer and seems to not understand you can't do that for 26 miles. In their 16 mile marathon effort workout video he was talking about how it got hard at 13 miles but you've got to just keep pushing through it. That's not good if it's really hard at 13 miles when you're supposed to be doing marathon pace.

I don't know, 16mi at marathon pace is a damn hard workout when you've got 100+ miles and a hard workout in your legs. Maybe not the hardest workout ever designed, but it's not a layup.