Cam Newton Cut by Patriots

they're filthy wrote:

scam newton was lazy and shiftless. He was more interested in jiving and shucking than in training. He didn't know the playbook, but for sure knew all the crappy rap lyrics.

Do you talk to your fellow Black students or your fellow Black co-works or Blacks in your nursing home like that?

threat of running is as important as actually running wrote:

they're filthy wrote:

scam newton was lazy and shiftless. He was more interested in jiving and shucking than in training. He didn't know the playbook, but for sure knew all the crappy rap lyrics.

Do you talk to your fellow Black students or your fellow Black co-works or Blacks in your nursing home like that?

What does race have to do with newton being lazy and shiftless and his jiving and shucking? I look at the substance of a person, not their color.

threat of running is as important as actually running wrote:

they're filthy wrote:

scam newton was lazy and shiftless. He was more interested in jiving and shucking than in training. He didn't know the playbook, but for sure knew all the crappy rap lyrics.

Do you talk to your fellow Black students or your fellow Black co-works or Blacks in your nursing home like that?

Don't feed the troll.

Newton's mechanics are awful. He developed that high elbow chicken wing over the years. That is the same flaw that has derailed Carson Wentz' career and it's the reason Justin Fields slipped so far in the draft. That high elbow dramatically lessens the ability to vary pace and loft, especially on midrange throws. Quarterbacks with that horrific mechanical flaw need to be able to escape the pocket and create on their own. The more they create the less reliant they are on the midrange throws. Justin Fields can hide his chicken wing via escapability. Newton can lo longer do that. In the pocket he's increasingly reliant on mindless line drives. That's what all the chicken wing types default to. They can't relax and use the proper low tucked elbow to adjust the throw to the evolving needs of the play.

Awsi Dooger wrote:

Newton's mechanics are awful. He developed that high elbow chicken wing over the years. That is the same flaw that has derailed Carson Wentz' career and it's the reason Justin Fields slipped so far in the draft. That high elbow dramatically lessens the ability to vary pace and loft, especially on midrange throws. Quarterbacks with that horrific mechanical flaw need to be able to escape the pocket and create on their own. The more they create the less reliant they are on the midrange throws. Justin Fields can hide his chicken wing via escapability. Newton can lo longer do that. In the pocket he's increasingly reliant on mindless line drives. That's what all the chicken wing types default to. They can't relax and use the proper low tucked elbow to adjust the throw to the evolving needs of the play.

Very good points. Cam looks awful on screen passes which require touch.

Runningart2004 wrote:

It’s been interesting seeing these hybrid QBs over the years fly high at first then come crashing down to the reality of the physical toil of the NFL.

RG3

Cam

Who else?

Alan

IMO Cam >>> RG3, but neither was known for their ability to read an NFL defense. They always say that the NFL is a league of imitation. If you don’t continuously change and innovate, you’ll get figured out in a hurry.

Creepy old man wrote:

I don't see Cam making the HOF with his current body of work.

Look, Randall Cunningham isn't in the HOF, and he had some gaudy rushing numbers, led the league in passing, was a four time pro bowl guy, had one season where he had nearly 1,000 yards rushing and 3500 passing. Went only 3-6 in the playoffs, but overall was 82-52.

Cam's record is weaker, had at most 700 yards rushing in a season, but did score a LOT of touchdowns compared to Cunningham. Has an MVP.

I just don't see Cam getting in if Cunningham can't. Hell they don't even mention Randall Cunningham anymore.

Then you get a guy like Dan Fouts who basically is a .500 quatrerback, never won anything, and he's in the HOF.

I think Cam was a markedly better statistical QB at his peak compared with Randall, off to pro football reference.com to check….

There’s no way that you could put either of them in the HOF. The whole country saw Cam make a ‘business’ decision in the SB and he didn’t fall on a fumble. There are way too many moments like that in his career.

Randall was a novelty act, but he was kind of a doofus and hopelessly inept at game management and film study. I don’t wanna hear about 1998 because that team had Robert Smith, Cris Carter, and Randy Moss. They would make Joe Pisarcik look good.

An interesting chart here:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/hof/hofm_QB.htm

Something that stuck out…

Cam and Russ Wilson are the only QBs in the top ~70 on this list with less than 10 years in the league. Talk about making your mark in a short period of time.

- Rookie of the year

- MVP (71% of NFL MVPs are in the HoF)

- Most rushing attempts (1071) and touchdowns (70) by a quarterback ever

- Most rushing touchdowns by a quarterback in a season (14)

The longevity wasn’t there, but the fire burned bright. Cam changed the game.

POKE IT POKE POKE wrote:

Sally Vixxxxxxxxens wrote:

Lamar Jackson.

Vince Young, probably one of the best college quarterback of all time. Came into the NFL and lit it up for a season or two. Then the NFL figures you out. And you also get hurt because you're taking hits. And the defensive players are really fast, faster than what you faced in college.

NFL quarterbacking really comes down to QUICKLY knowing where to throw and then putting it on target.

Running, big arm, mechanics, "leadership", etc. Nice to have, but that's not really the game in the NFL.

Agree. If Michael Vick couldn’t run his team to a championship, no one can. I suspect a lot of running quarterbacks split their time in their formative years between training to throw and training to run. As a result their toolkit as a passer is necessarily more limited.

POKE IT POKE POKE wrote:

NFL quarterbacking really comes down to QUICKLY knowing where to throw and then putting it on target.

Running, big arm, mechanics, "leadership", etc. Nice to have, but that's not really the game in the NFL.

There’s all kinds of things going on here. First, are you confusing ‘release’ with ‘time to throw?’

Not the same thing. Not remotely. The reason all those above mentioned quarterbacks failed (Vince Jones, Kap, Vick, RGIII) is because they did not prepare.

A modern QB has to be mobile, so yes running does come into it. I presume that you are talking about rushing. A modern QB has to be able to throw outside the numbers. A modern QB has to break down film in copious amounts, that’s leadership. Mechanics are absolutely essential to accuracy. Inaccurate QBs don’t tend to stick around for long.

There are always exceptions, but they tend to get found out.

Mikeh33 wrote:

Agree. If Michael Vick couldn’t run his team to a championship, no one can. I suspect a lot of running quarterbacks split their time in their formative years between training to throw and training to run. As a result their toolkit as a passer is necessarily more limited.

Michael Vick had a career rating of 80. He was a liability as a passer. His running could not overcome this.

I realize he was great in Madden and was a human highlight reel, but a 56% career completion rate and no work ethic are the story on him. He even admits it.

the macdaddy og yo wrote:

The longevity wasn’t there, but the fire burned bright. Cam changed the game.

I think that’s a compelling argument, but I disagree that Cam changed the game. I think Duante Culpepper changed the game. Cam just expanded the template somewhat. He also benefitted from a lot more protection than earlier QBs — even allowing for the late hits that he took. Those wouldn’t even be noticed in Culpepper’s time.

llort_vbo wrote:

the macdaddy og yo wrote:

The longevity wasn’t there, but the fire burned bright. Cam changed the game.

I think that’s a compelling argument, but I disagree that Cam changed the game. I think Duante Culpepper changed the game. Cam just expanded the template somewhat. He also benefitted from a lot more protection than earlier QBs — even allowing for the late hits that he took. Those wouldn’t even be noticed in Culpepper’s time.

Culpepper didn’t change the game as evidenced by your not even getting his first name right.

Creepy old man wrote:

Then you get a guy like Dan Fouts who basically is a .500 quatrerback, never won anything, and he's in the HOF.

Dan Fouts was brilliant, one of the most underrated quarterbacks of all time. His stats were eye popping in an era long before easy pass interference or roughing the passer. Not his fault he was on a series of mediocre teams.

surveysays wrote:

llort_vbo wrote:

I think that’s a compelling argument, but I disagree that Cam changed the game. I think Duante Culpepper changed the game. Cam just expanded the template somewhat. He also benefitted from a lot more protection than earlier QBs — even allowing for the late hits that he took. Those wouldn’t even be noticed in Culpepper’s time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daunte_Culpepper

Culpepper didn’t change the game as evidenced by your not even getting his first name right.

Mikeh33 wrote:

Creepy old man wrote:

Then you get a guy like Dan Fouts who basically is a .500 quatrerback, never won anything, and he's in the HOF.

Dan Fouts was brilliant, one of the most underrated quarterbacks of all time. His stats were eye popping in an era long before easy pass interference or roughing the passer. Not his fault he was on a series of mediocre teams.

Yeah, that offense was fun to watch. Not trying to disrespect him.

Suffice it to say, the game has changed and sadly he probably wouldn't be in the HOF if he played in this era. He'd be like Kirk Cousins -- a guy with some great stats but a career .500 win/loss. Cousins has a high completion rate, better td/int ratio, etc, and no one would ever consider him HOF material.

Creepy old man wrote:

Mikeh33 wrote:

Dan Fouts was brilliant, one of the most underrated quarterbacks of all time. His stats were eye popping in an era long before easy pass interference or roughing the passer. Not his fault he was on a series of mediocre teams.

Yeah, that offense was fun to watch. Not trying to disrespect him.

Suffice it to say, the game has changed and sadly he probably wouldn't be in the HOF if he played in this era. He'd be like Kirk Cousins -- a guy with some great stats but a career .500 win/loss. Cousins has a high completion rate, better td/int ratio, etc, and no one would ever consider him HOF material.

I disagree. He put up big numbers in a much less friendly passing era. If he played today he'd be top 5in the league on a team like the Vikings. Cousins is more like 15th.

Mikeh33 wrote:

Creepy old man wrote:

Then you get a guy like Dan Fouts who basically is a .500 quatrerback, never won anything, and he's in the HOF.

Dan Fouts was brilliant, one of the most underrated quarterbacks of all time. His stats were eye popping in an era long before easy pass interference or roughing the passer. Not his fault he was on a series of mediocre teams.

Dan Fouts was a highly skilled QB but he had flaws. Absolutely no mobility and Fouts took significant risk with the football. There are old AFL QBs who also have bad interception numbers. Back in 1960's, AFL was a gimmick league. Old AFL QB's were encouraged to throw bombs down field in order to show AFL was different from NFL. Fouts did not play in that era. Dan Fouts threw 242 interceptions. His interceptions are a significant reason why his team never went to Superbowl. Fouts is in Hall of Fame. Dan Fouts is not underrated.

threat of running is as important as actually running wrote:

Threat of running quarterback is as important as actually running.

If a QB is a threat to run, passing defenses must play less complicated schemes.

Catch-22. If a QB crosses line of scrimmage, defense are allowed to hit QB like a running back or tight end. The more a QB crosses line of scrimmage the more likely a QB will have a shorter career as do running backs.

Francis Tarkenton, Russell Wilson and Steve Young figured out a good balance between run and pass.

Yeah, there is a difference between a QB that can scramble and make plays out of the pocket (Wilson, Mahomes) and incorporating QB running plays as a key component of the offense (Newton, Jackson). With Kap and Cam their running ability was used to make up for liabilities in their passing game. If Jackson plans to have a long HoF career he will need to stop playing like a RB as much as he does.