Niyonsaba 8:19.08 3k - #6 all-time ever

The reality that needs to be faced up to is that DSD athletes, as Niyonsaba is, are biologically male; they have internal testes which produce testosterone, the hormone that more than anything else defines maleness from puberty onwards. What an intersex athlete identifies with does not change that. They are fundamentally males competing in female competition - with all the advantages that come from that.

I would not enter the debate on 46XY DSD people being "more women" or "more men", it might be also unfair to people who have grown as women because that's how they've been identified at birth. We should also consider that 46 XY DSD is not a unique condition, it's a spectrum. There are several possibilities impacting the level of testosterone and the possibility for the body to "use" it, having a different effect on sport performance. But to me it doesn't really matter, and I would make it even simpler: testosterone is the only "measurable" way to distinguish between male and female according to their biological characteristics. It's what makes the asbolute difference in top performance between people born with XX and people born with XY. It can't be compared to whatever biological characteristic that makes e.g. east african people better in running long distances, or other examples like Bolt having long legs, simply because in none of these examples there's a single element that will ALWAYS give such a big advantage to a person who has it compared to one who doesn't have it (making all other aspects basically irrelevant). It's the same reason why there are separate events for people under a certain age. Personally i'm in favour of setting limits to the level of testosterone, although i'd like to have the opinion of an expert about how much the continuous production of testosterone over a number of years can give a person an advantage (because of the effects that testosterone has on the body) even when the level of testosterone is artificially lowered. But it has to be the same limit for all distances in athletics, simply because the difference in performance between men and women is exactly the same.

who cares how testosterone affects performance? she is a man, she cannot run with the girls.

Lol. Niyonsaba. Just go ahead and dissolve the women’s category already. What a complete joke.

Absolutely the correct position to hold, and well said.

Agreed. The current practice of limiting the XY DSD testo rules to 400 m - 1 mile is just plain stupid. Unfortunately it will take years to fix this problem.

khcglhc wrote:

You do realize that only Jakob and Bauman (drug cheat) are the only non East Africans in the top 60 all time at 5000m

Well, there are some North africans as well on that list!

So, genetical man (XY chromosome) was able to run 8:19? Wow! Half Letsrun can do that. Was raised as woman? So what? Another half of Letsrun can not run that time due to generical disadvantage also (we do not have sufficient VO2max, for example) and we do not say anything.

WA has to do something to rule this situation out. Women athletics will eventually die if these intersex, dsd etc. athletes will not be prohibited to participate. Spectators will go somewhere else - I prefare to watch something like MTB with Jolanda Neff, than some DSD athletes looking like dudes winning women cathegory. And sure I am not alone.

Loppas wrote:

khcglhc wrote:

You do realize that only Jakob and Bauman (drug cheat) are the only non East Africans in the top 60 all time at 5000m

Well, there are some North africans as well on that list!

Agreed. East and North Africans should not be allowed to run in the men category for distances over 1 mile. They have an unfair genetic advantage. They are killing the sport. What chance does a Caucasian, born in North Dakota have? Guys should be protesting.

Alternatively, they should have their own category.

See how silly that sounds.

the East and North Africans do not have different organs from other men.

if they had a second heart, or a third lung, they would definitely be banned from competing with the normal men.

Earth to Des Linden. That's all I could think about during the final laps of that race. Linden was calling it as if it were a normal race. She continued to focus on Niyonsaba expending energy pushing from the front those final laps, and how it would set up for someone to make a late pass.

Are you out of your mind? Do you have any idea who is leading this race? I realize the distance commentators have not been in this predicament until recently. But they should have watched the 800 often enough to acquire just a speck of real world clarity.

Niyonsaba didn't hide it at all. That's the aspect that applies so much scrutiny. No female runner of any caliber can seemingly be struggling like that beyond midway of the final lap ,and then instantly appear perfectly fresh and find four extra gears during a sprint finish. It stood out as a total mockery.

I don't know what the solution is. I feel bad for the XY athletes. I feel worse for whomever they are competing against. The aftermath of these Niyonsaba races are now every bit as awkward as the 800 for years. Niyonsaba turns around and expects sincere congratulations. She receives a reluctant one or two.

Sifan Hassan is the reference point. If Niyonsaba begins putting her away easily, everyone will be forced to take notice. Also I imagine Wambui will put in enough distance work to become quickly relevant.

400-1500 is like a private gated community with guards and towers everywhere. So arbitrary. Any adjustment will be equally arbitrary.

douglas burke wrote:

Niyonsaba did NOTHING WRONG, She was born that Way, Wouldn't Intersex have a big disadvantage against Men? The same condition she was born with that helps her against Woman would disadvantage her against Men.

No one is saying Niyonsaba is doing anything wrong. Your argument about disadvantage against men due to way person is born applies to 1,000's of disabled people, yet sexual disability is not seen as a disability, because you can compete against a sex that is inferior in physical performance.

Outright nonsense for women to put up with this

I'm a woman. LOL. Yet somehow I knew you would call me a misogynist in your response. Guess it must be internalized, right? Due to my abusive socialization by the oh-so-oppressive patriarchy? Hahahaha give me a break. And to your last comment about trans women being creepy--none, and I mean NONE, of the trans people I've encountered have been as creepy as the ter--oops, I mean *gender critical* feminists I've encountered. Militant weirdos.

RunRagged wrote:

paolo78 wrote:

to me it doesn't really matter, and I would make it even simpler: testosterone is the only "measurable" way to distinguish between male and female according to their biological characteristics.

Thanks paolo for expressing a view that's 100% misogynistic and male supremacist.

The "78" in your user name - to which ancient century or millennia does it refer?

Hm.. Let me amend my previous comment. Militant, sanctimonious, moralizing, delusion weirdos.

Sorry, but not everything you disagree with is "misogynistic." The terf BS is so tired and lame. Oh, and let's not forget, philosophically bankrupt!

wejo wrote:

Very impressive run. Only 3 Chinese women and Sifan Hassan are faster outdoors and Dibaba faster indoors.

This begs the questions was Niyonsaba in the wrong event the entire time? She won't get to run a 1500 as the DSD regulations prevent it but would 1500 have been her best event?

Ejgayehu Taye was 2nd in 8:19.52, has run 14:14 for 5000.

Elise Cranny nice PB dropping from 8:40 to 8:30

Wejo , my last post was expunged .. I’ll be more succinct this go round… Its a dude; that is not a female.