A picture is worth a thousands words. Ask a 5 year old, which of the following athletes is intersex and dominating World Jrs?

simple one wrote:

I know this may be a simpletons take, so feel free to correct(or bash me since this is letsrun) but isn’t it weird that we find ways to make women who are good at sports unable to compete as females because they exhibit masculine traits? As in, the traits that would make one good at sports? Like say there is a woman who just DOES produce that much testosterone by some freak condition. Why is she not allowed to compete? As the female equivalent of Usain Bolt?

It's not weird and we aren't finding "ways to make women who are good at sports unable to compete as females".

We have a protected category for women based on sex organs. This woman's internal sex organs are male. The reality is she's intersex and I don't think intersex people should be allowed to compete in the women's category. The reality is if she's like Caster Semenya, it's possible she could father a child but never give birth to a baby.

And don't tell me it's racist. Way back in 1968, the white Austrian Erik Schinegger found out she was intersex and had internal male sex organs. She transitioned to male and became a father.

Do we really want a huge ingredient to whether you have a shot in women's sport being whether or not you are born with male sex organs?

khcglhc wrote:

Did Masilingi sandbag in the final?

Are we going to see a Caster #2?

No, she just lost to an insane female athlete, she ran 11.2 when she was 14!

Your appealing to the expertise of 5-year-olds is about right for this site.

Ain't 1857 wrote:

If Masilingi is a male as you are all

suggesting,then why isn't she running

10s as male jrs are ?

Africans or blacks in general are not

voicing objections,all the complaints

are from whites.As long as the advantage

purported is natural and not artificial,I

see no problem here.I have yet to hear

any objection to anyone participating in

a spelling bee or chess match because

they have a more natural affinity for it

A 5 year old could figure that lpd is an internet troll who does straw man arguments all day on race.

If Bruce Jenner was intersex he would have won 9 out of 10 events in the female category. Masalingi is essentially young Bruce biologically.

For the record, I'm pretty sure the terms "internal testes" are quite misleading also.

It is my understanding that a females ovaries and the male testes form from the same starting point in males and females.

Ovaries in women produce both female and male sex hormones (including testosterone), but the balance is key.

So it is more likely that she has a set of organs which are neither fully developed, sperm producing testes nor egg producing ovaries, but something in between. Intersex.

"Undescended testes" by the way sit exactly where ovaries are situated in women. So it's not really any less accurate than to describe them as dysfunctional ovaries.

ex-runner wrote:

For the record, I'm pretty sure the terms "internal testes" are quite misleading also.

It is my understanding that a females ovaries and the male testes form from the same starting point in males and females.

Ovaries in women produce both female and male sex hormones (including testosterone), but the balance is key.

So it is more likely that she has a set of organs which are neither fully developed, sperm producing testes nor egg producing ovaries, but something in between. Intersex.

"Undescended testes" by the way sit exactly where ovaries are situated in women. So it's not really any less accurate than to describe them as dysfunctional ovaries.

We could back up your "same starting point" logic further and say we're just dysfunctional males or females since we all start from a zygote, and a bit layer, an undifferentiated embryo (except for XX vs XY chromosomes).

Testes differentiate in week 8 of embryo development, so no, they're not just dysfunctional ovaries. An XX woman doesn't even produce all testosterone from the ovaries, half comes from extra-gonadal tissues like skin and fat. The rest comes from a combination of adrenals and ovaries.

Total T in mature healthy XX females is typically 1/11 of mature healthy males. The resultant musculature differences is a bit more complicated, it depends on how many and how sensitive your androgen receptors are. Ever notice how body builders and some football players have bowling ball sized deltoids and huge trapezius muscles sticking out from the side of their necks? That's because males have the densest area of androgen receptors in that area. You can see the morphological similarity in most (not all) intersex woman, their delts and traps are so much more massive then XX woman because a) they have hi T, b) they have male pattern androgen receptors and sensitivity, thanks their XY chromosomes.

OozmaKappa wrote:

That is literally a man. Allowing men to compete with women means the end of womens sports.

Also, why are they always from Namibia?

LRC response. Your post is the type of post we don't really want. She is not a man. We think the proper definition is intersex. While we don't know the particulars of her situation, it's like she has no penis, no uterus but does have internal testes. That seems pretty much the definition of intersex - external genitalia that is female, internal that is male. Men generally have penises.

Just want to point out that this is much appreciated from LetsRun.

It's one thing to debate the inclusion of intersex women in the women's division; it's another to spew hateful vitriol, especially towards a girl who didn't ask to be born this way and just wants to run.

This must be about the twentieth thread posted on the same subject, with the same arguments being posted again and again.

Oh brother, save me the crocodile tears.

I'm a hardcore leftist gay liberal and never find myself agreeing with Rojo but I do agree with his take here.

Intersex women didn't ask to be born this way and do not deserve any of the hatred they get on here. However, science is science and they are on a different playing field than XX women - or as I understand it, the ones whose bodies can metabolize testosterone at a higher rate, which is not all intersex women.

I'd love to see an intersex category added at the Olympics/in athletics. I think it would be awesome to see Caster, Niyonsaba, et all compete freely and unencumbered. Start off with just a couple events, like the 200m and 800m. How amazing would that be?

Dwightarm wrote:

I think it would be awesome to see Caster, Niyonsaba, et all compete freely and unencumbered. Start off with just a couple events, like the 200m and 800m. How amazing would that be?

Well could certainly replace those 100m heats at the olympics where what seemed like high-school caliber athletes plodded down the track. What the hell was the purpose of those?

PMellyhenepics wrote:

Dwightarm wrote:

I think it would be awesome to see Caster, Niyonsaba, et all compete freely and unencumbered. Start off with just a couple events, like the 200m and 800m. How amazing would that be?

Well could certainly replace those 100m heats at the olympics where what seemed like high-school caliber athletes plodded down the track. What the hell was the purpose of those?

They should run in the PARALYMPICS, not the Olympics. Like the 8.62 long jumper who insists on jumping off his blade leg and not his real leg.

Dwightarm wrote:

...I'd love to see an intersex category added at the Olympics/in athletics. I think it would be awesome to see Caster, Niyonsaba, et all compete freely and unencumbered. Start off with just a couple events, like the 200m and 800m. How amazing would that be?

Interesting point, however i wouldn't want to turn it into a freak show (arguably the Olympics already are) and not sure how the commercial advertisers would react.

What i would like most to hear on this thread , is what do the intersex woman think about a separate category.

Also let's hear comments from XX woman, how many are ok with competing against intersex woman, especially those who earn money from competing and hope to support themselves and their family. Can someone quote some surveys on this? And why do there seem to be so few women posting on these type of threads? Does it bother women that it's mostly men talking about, and making these decisions?

If Masilingi does not have a Y chromosome, and isn't cheating, what's the problem? Why even refer to this person as "intersex" if it's her God-given biology? Is this not a perverted, degrading moniker that she didn't ask for? A moniker that was created by Western academics, to boot?

If it really confuses you fence-sitting liberals, then throw her in the mens' competitions. After all, if men and women really are totally EQUAL aside from society's prejudices, then with a little tweaking of expectations, I'm sure we'll see very many women running sub-10 100ms, sub-4 miles, sub-14 5ks, and so on. Right?

(Granted, I just saw the headline and know nothing about this particular instance in-depth. So feel free to elaborate.)

Dwightarm wrote:

It's one thing to debate the inclusion of intersex women in the women's division; it's another to spew hateful vitriol, especially towards a girl who didn't ask to be born this way and just wants to run.

The correct place to start from is that intersex athletes didn't ask to be born the way they were, it's just who they are. How do we find a solution that doesn't punish a person for something that is absolutely no fault of their own. The difficulty becomes with the difference between sex and gender. Her gender is female, she was raised female and has always been female and now people want to ban her from competing as female. You are taking something away from her when you do this (and more, singling her out and making her feel worse about herself for something that is not her fault). The reality is there is no easy solution, but there certainly will never be a solution reached if people are blinded by hate and anger for this girl who cannot help the way she was born. Start with some compassion. You want to stop a female from being able to race as a female - maybe that's the right thing to do for other competitors, but it's certainly not fair to her. Again - I don't know the right answer, but if you are unable to see it from her point of view and have some compassion, then there will never be a any sort of fair resolution to this issue.

But if you have low T and external female parts then there is no investigation into sex. This is just my guess but the only reason people like Semenya, Wambui, Niyonsaba were investigated is because they did have high T which points to something genetic or doping. But if and XY has low T then there would be no investigation into sex.

The Clown Show wrote:

What are the opinions of her competitors? Are they ok with the situation? Seems to me that this situation is about what's fair to a very minor few over what's fair to the vast majority.

Can someone find an instance in which women running against intersexed athletes have openly said they are OK with it?

OozmaKappa wrote:

That is literally a man. Allowing men to compete with women means the end of womens sports.

Also, why are they always from Namibia?

LRC response. Your post is the type of post we don't really want. She is not a man. We think the proper definition is intersex. While we don't know the particulars of her situation, it's like she has no penis, no uterus but does have internal testes. That seems pretty much the definition of intersex - external genitalia that is female, internal that is male. Men generally have penises.

It's usual for sports to favour specific body types. Jockeys are small, Basketball players are tall.

It's also usual for competitors to have varying individual physical traits which might or might not offer advantage. In the Tokyo Women's Olympic Marathon, we saw a 4'11" runner next to a 6' runner, so height wasn't a factor. Bolt was about 6'5" and a head above most in the lanes around him - this did seem to be a big part of what made him dominant. Less obvious are genetic factors, such as those determining trainable Fast-Twitch/Slow-Twitch composition.

In Junior sports, we divide into age categories. 8 year olds aren't as physically developed at 16 year olds. Sports are also divided on gender - men develop more musculature than women. Muscles = strength. Men run faster, jump higher, throw farther, and so on. At high levels of Sport, there's roughly a 10% difference between the best men and best women.

If Bruce Jenner had identified as female sooner, and been permitted to compete in Women's sports, would that have been fair? Of course not. Because when a competitor has unique hormonal, and thus muscular, differences providing significant competitive advantage, the playing field isn't level.

Why is that different for Intersex/Transgender competitors? We ban women who take drugs to increase testosterone, because that is unfair advantage. But if a woman naturally produces high testosterone, it's nonetheless an advantage.

The issue isn't what dangly bits you have or don't.

IAAF recognised this - hence new requirements for Testosterone suppression in some Women's events. This is meant to turn overwhelming advantage into moderate advantage. Moderate Advantage as maximum permitted testosterone levels for those taking suppression treatment is still well above that of most women and above levels which would trigger an adverse finding.

Those complaining are missing the point. Sport isn't just about competition - it's about fair competition.

And if the whole scandal about the revised study about testosterone and performance where correlation does not equal causation, lower their testosterone and see what happens. I know that it's not that simple and also unethical but you gonna tell me that Semenya was winning because she worked harder than her fellow athletes and not the fact that she looks like a man, sounds like a man, XY with internal testes, and married to a woman. Puhleeze.