Would Kipchoge winning Oly Marathon Gold #3 in 2024 be enough to surpass Bekele as the Distance GOAT?

El Keniano wrote:

Another goalpost moved. A few years ago, they said he has to repeat as Olympic champion, I tough ask even I thought he wouldn't be able to. The truth is, no one's mind is getting changed. However, the fact remains, his sub-2 efforts transcended the sport and seeped into the mainstream in ways few others have managed. And interestingly, he remains the face of the sport while the media tries and, yet again, fails, to find and crown Bolt's replacement.

What? Dude you can't be serious. I've been around on this board since like 2013, versatility has always been part of the GOAT conversation. That's also why many people have Bekele ahead of Geb, cross-country achievement is the tie-breaker there.

Actually if you ask somebody on the street, 5 out of 10 may be able to tell you who Bolt is, while I wouldn't surprise no one could name Kipchoge. Kipchoge is only a star among runners. Still, as you've already acknowledged, that's beside the point.

When we talk GOAT we have to talk specific events. The 10k and marathon are not the same. Kipchoge is the GOAT at the marathon. Bekele is the GOAT at 10k. Both have/had run world records at these events. Both have two gold medals at these events. Both had many years of incredible consistency at these events. So it comes down to which event means more to you.

Curious_Cat wrote:

Wise Old Man wrote:

I agree. Bolt is still the sport’s biggest star ever, certainly in the last 50 years. Maybe Jesse Owens was a greater and more important star than Bolt. Hard to compare. Kipchoge is 2nd. Bekele is a global nobody. What’s Bekele’s q rating? The global face of distance running, to casual fans and non fans is Kipchoge by far. Should this factor into goat status, maybe not, but distance runnings greatest star is Kipchoge and all the rest are a very distant 2nd.

Actually if you ask somebody on the street, 5 out of 10 may be able to tell you who Bolt is, while I wouldn't surprise no one could name Kipchoge. Kipchoge is only a star among runners. Still, as you've already acknowledged, that's beside the point.

The sub-2 eventshave been more mainstream than anything that's happened in the sport. And he even has a movie coming out which isn't targeted at runners. Bolt is the only one that wouldn't be out of place in a room with names like Lebron, Serena or Woods. But you can't deny Eliud has provided moments that reverberated way beyond the limits of the sport.

El Keniano wrote:

Curious_Cat wrote:

Actually if you ask somebody on the street, 5 out of 10 may be able to tell you who Bolt is, while I wouldn't surprise no one could name Kipchoge. Kipchoge is only a star among runners. Still, as you've already acknowledged, that's beside the point.

The sub-2 eventshave been more mainstream than anything that's happened in the sport. And he even has a movie coming out which isn't targeted at runners. Bolt is the only one that wouldn't be out of place in a room with names like Lebron, Serena or Woods. But you can't deny Eliud has provided moments that reverberated way beyond the limits of the sport.

I did a Q score assessment with my 85 yr old, never runner, never sport’s fan, generally well informed, NYC living mother.

Bolt-of course, got angry for asking. No mom, I don’t think you have dementia.

Felix-yes, same response as above

Kipchoge-Yes!

Syd-Yes,!

Warholm-No, Jakob-No, Mu-No

Bekele-of course not.

Wise Old Man wrote:

El Keniano wrote:

The sub-2 eventshave been more mainstream than anything that's happened in the sport. And he even has a movie coming out which isn't targeted at runners. Bolt is the only one that wouldn't be out of place in a room with names like Lebron, Serena or Woods. But you can't deny Eliud has provided moments that reverberated way beyond the limits of the sport.

I did a Q score assessment with my 85 yr old, never runner, never sport’s fan, generally well informed, NYC living mother.

Bolt-of course, got angry for asking. No mom, I don’t think you have dementia.

Felix-yes, same response as above

Kipchoge-Yes!

Syd-Yes,!

Warholm-No, Jakob-No, Mu-No

Bekele-of course not.

McLaughlin is only famous to Americans. She doesn't translate internationally for some reason.

El Keniano wrote:

Another goalpost moved. A few years ago, they said he has to repeat as Olympic champion, I tough ask even I thought he wouldn't be able to. The truth is, no one's mind is getting changed. However, the fact remains, his sub-2 efforts transcended the sport and seeped into the mainstream in ways few others have managed. And interestingly, he remains the face of the sport while the media tries and, yet again, fails, to find and crown Bolt's replacement.

+1

He became the GOAT distance runner last Sunday.

Kipchoge is greater at the Marathon than Bekele was at 5k, 10k, or XC, in that his exploits have been more unprecedented, unique and transcendent.

But the real X-Factor here is longevity. Here’s the gap between first and last World XC, World Indoor Championship, World Outdoor Championship or Olympic golds for a number of GOAT contenders:

Bekele - ‘02 - ‘09 (7 years)

Gebrselassie - ‘93 - ‘03 (10 years)

Farah - ‘11 - ‘17 (6 years)

El Guerrouj - ‘95 - ‘04 (9 years)

Kipchoge - ‘03 - ‘21 (18 years)

Athing Mu and Keely Hodgkinson were both 1 year old when Kipchoge won World Championship gold over El Guerrouj and Bekele.

Abebe Bikila was kind of a big deal in Ethiopia. Gebrselassie and Bekele would have killed for an Olympic marathon gold to emulate the old national hero, but failed to make it happen. Bekele could have won a hundred XC titles and they wouldn’t be worth Kipchoge’s 2 Olympic Marathon wins - the highest, most coveted title in all of distance running.

To turn the screw on all the Bekele loyalists (and here’s the thing: I like Bekele more than Kipchoge for some inexplicable reason; I was in awe of and inspired by his 2:01:41 in 2019; and I would have been rooting for him big-time in a hypothetical last mile showdown with Kipchoge in the Tokyo Olympics), what kind of a “Distance GOAT” wins their last major title at age 27?

"what kind of a “Distance GOAT” wins their last major title at age 27?"

A better question might be what kind of a "Distance GOAT" wins no major titles between ages 18 and 31.

John Wesley Harding wrote:

Kipchoge is greater at the Marathon than Bekele was at 5k, 10k, or XC, in that his exploits have been more unprecedented, unique and transcendent.

On what are you basing this assumption?

Bekele at his best was just unbeatable in 10 000m and was as great as Kipchoge is in Marathon. Bekele is 16-2 in the 10 000m and had won his 12 first 10 000m, he only lost when he was past in his prime, in 2011.

And the track and XC competition was much stronger than the Marathon competition. The Marathon competition has always consisted of former track athletes who were unable to continue to compete on track, like Gebresselassie, Bekele or Kipchoge himself or people who were not good enough to compete on track like Kipsang or Legese.

Longevity of Kipchoge is impressive, but I have a hard time calling him the greatest when I remember than in his prime he was bulldozed by Bekele in 5000m, 3000m and XC.

Kipchoge left the track for the marathon because he was not competitive anymore in the 5 000m.

Chocabloc wrote:

"what kind of a “Distance GOAT” wins their last major title at age 27?"

A better question might be what kind of a "Distance GOAT" wins no major titles between ages 18 and 31.

To be honest it's more impressive if you start dominating at an older age against all the younger talents in their prime. And of course Kipchoge has the track WC gold from when he was 18, followed by olympic silver and bronze + lesser medals. I wonder where Bekele's olympic medals from the marathon are.. he has failed twice now to make the team, Kipchoge only missed one olympics and was able to make the necessary adjustments.

And before you even mention it, it's completely understandable that the ethiopians picked Desisa (doha champ from hot conditions), and Kitata + Lemma who are consistently good with good PB's. Bekele just has too many DNFs and total meltdowns and we unfortunately know it's his own fault. He has zero consistency.

The "bad" phase in Kipchoge's career was much better than Bekele's bad phase. At least so far, with a world record Bekele can redeem his marathon career, but he does need something solid. World/Olympic medals or WR, not this "almost ran a WR" nonesense.

Why if all the "young talent" were just people not good enough to cut it on track?

Abeneciel wrote:

Why if all the "young talent" were just people not good enough to cut it on track?

Why can't Bekele dominate in the marathon against so weak athletes then? Or even qualify for the olympics over these less talented individuals? If Kipchoge the olympic silver medalist track athlete can do it, why can't Bekele?

need more information wrote:

Abeneciel wrote:

Why if all the "young talent" were just people not good enough to cut it on track?

Why can't Bekele dominate in the marathon against so weak athletes then? Or even qualify for the olympics over these less talented individuals? If Kipchoge the olympic silver medalist track athlete can do it, why can't Bekele?

Bekele post 2010 has been crippled by injuries.

But even he can come back at 37 years old asbolutely crush the "young marathon" field and put a 2:01 performance two seconds away from Kipchoge record.

It actually proves my point that Bekele can come back old and crush the young field.

Is Kipchoge really dominating against all the top young talents in their prime? Cheptegei, Barega, Kejelcha, Kiplimo and the rest aren't running marathons. Also, Kipchoge's won two major titles in the period you identify as his prime. Bekele won, what, nearly twenty, I think: eight or so Oly/WC golds and eleven WXC championships. (And yes, contrary what some people here claim, those WXC titles are major titles. In those years it was known as the toughest race in the world and attracted all the top talent. Kipchoge tried a number of times and couldn't pull it off. Road racing was the least prestigious discipline in those days.) He absolutely flattened Kipchoge year after year in that era. I assume you and a number of other posters here are simply trolling. As many people have pointed out, any reasonable criteria for GOAT places serious weight on versatility. Being supremely good at just one event isn't enough. This thread's very existence is a great example of extreme recency bias. The arguments here will age only slightly better than the arguments we saw a few years ago for Farah being the all-time best. (I say they'll age slightly better because I'm sure we can all agree Kipchoge is a notch above Farah on the all-time pecking order.)

Absolutely not. It would only further solidify him as the GOAT in the Marathon.

Bekele's world dominance across all distance events and Cross Country will never be repeated.

Mix in how old he was when he just barely missed the marathon WR at Berlin, and you realize how good Bekele could have been if he had figured out the marathon as early as Kipchoge did.

Abeneciel wrote:

need more information wrote:

Why can't Bekele dominate in the marathon against so weak athletes then? Or even qualify for the olympics over these less talented individuals? If Kipchoge the olympic silver medalist track athlete can do it, why can't Bekele?

Bekele post 2010 has been crippled by injuries.

But even he can come back at 37 years old asbolutely crush the "young marathon" field and put a 2:01 performance two seconds away from Kipchoge record.

It actually proves my point that Bekele can come back old and crush the young field.

I wouldn't say he has crushed in the marathon. He has won only 3 marathons out of 10, one of them in Paris in 2:05 which isn't exactly a spectacular achievement. 3 DNFs and DNS many times. His average marathon time is mid 2:05 which might seem good at the first glance since he has only participated in flat and fast majors with pacers, no tactical championship races and he has DNF:d all his potentially slow times. You'd surely expect more from the GOAT and the greatest supertalent of the track and XC against "weak" marathoners.

His resume just proves that it's probably even harder to dominate in the marathon than the track, since even the great Kenenisa with all of his talent has failed to do so. It's also his own fault he's always injured or isn't motivated. Meanwhile Kipchoge does the work to make sure he's never injured, he's never unmotivated, and it shows.

My point is that Kipchoge's track years are not at all as bad as many people here seem to think, and Bekele's marathon career has not been as good as people seem to think. Bekele's near miss of the 2:01 WR might be equally outstanding performance as Kipchoge's WC gold in the 5000m. Without that one 2:01 Bekele is mediocre at best in the marathon. Without the WC gold Kipchoge is still double olympic medalist in the 5000m. Does this make Kipchoge the GOAT, no, but he still was a fine track athlete.

(And if he keeps smashing the marathon for years his fine track career together with his absolutely legendary marathon career that just keeps getting better might make him seem like the overall GOAT to more and more people.)

Absolutely -- Kipchoge was outstanding on the track. I'm definitely not denying that. But you're conveniently omitting XC from your comparison. Remember that XC was a much bigger deal than road racing before the 2010s, and that World XC drew pretty much all the era's top talent (Sihine, Tadesse, Gebremariam, Kipsiro, Kipchoge, Kogo, Soi etc.). Even if -- a big if -- we consider them equally accomplished in their respective areas of strength, Bekele owns a pretty massive XC tiebreaker. (And I'm not even mentioning Bekele's utter dominance of the Diamond/Golden League for years on end, which should count for something too.)