IMO. Kipchoge 6th. He's great but has not matched the accomplishments of the other 5.
I love your top 6 but would make it:
1. Bekele
2. Haile
3. El G
4. Rudisha
5. Kipchoge
6. Farah
I don't agree with the notion that Bekele pushes Geb to 5th or whatever. Geb performed the quantum leap, lowering the 5k WR from 12:55 to 12:44 in one race. So legendary.
IMO. Kipchoge 6th. He's great but has not matched the accomplishments of the other 5.
I love your top 6 but would make it:
1. Bekele
2. Haile
3. El G
4. Rudisha
5. Kipchoge
6. Farah
I don't agree with the notion that Bekele pushes Geb to 5th or whatever. Geb performed the quantum leap, lowering the 5k WR from 12:55 to 12:44 in one race. So legendary.
Incredible co-incidence that the 6 greatest runners in the 130 year history of the sport all appeared in the same decade or so when use of the first drug to massively improve aerobic performance became rampant.
On a simple level, the odds of that are around 12 x 12 x 12 x 12 c 12 x 12 = 1 in 2,985,954
I just can't understand Salazar or Bill Rodgers in front of Gharib (it took greatest marathon performance to deny him the Olympic gold alongside 2 WC golds) - and - beleive it or not - he was clean - or greats such as Bordin, Wakihuri, Wainaina, Abera... even John Treacy (2x XC champ, marathon silver in '84).
Centro scored big at major meets, but in his time frame he's hardly better than Thomas Wessinghage or Sydney Maree or even Jim Spivey. He was very, very lucky thanks to atrocious attempts pace of his opponents.
Puttemans (7-8 WR's or so) with his legendary Olympic 10k silver in '72 should be in consideration. And if i think about the steeplechase, than there's Julius Kariuki - he almost shattered Rono's WR when winning Olympic gold in '88. In his only outing at WC, he faded to 4th in '91, but had great career and broke 2000msc WR.
Naftali Temu should be there (first Kenyan Olympic gold in '68, beat Clarke at '66 Commonwealths) - maybe.
Other big names that I remember are - Salvatore Antibo, Oly 10k silver in '88 who had stunning double at 1990 Europeans or Moses Tanui (world class in 10k, XC, HM and marathon), Yobes Ondieki, Richard Chelimo....
As I said - Rudisha is great, best 800m runner ever, but without second best event (as Juantorena or Coe) and Kipchoge is in hunt of the title of greatest marathoner, but at the track he was not in the category of Geb and Bekele and won just over 50% of his races. If he defends his Oly gold in marathon....
And for drug cheats - yea - Kiprop is not there (billed as a greatest miler of his generation), but to me the most obvious doper is Farah. Who's protecting him and why - that's another story of power and glory.
And - Kip Keino is still the greatest Kenyan atlete of all time (top 5 ever). My reason why...
Aouita was the only runner ranked No.1 in 800, 1500, 5000 and 10000m, but other greats like Kenenisa, Geb or Kipchoge also had a great range from 1500 to marathon. For Geb and Kenny B. i think they were capable of sub 3:30 1500.
People are also throwing names such as Choge or Lagat, but in comparison with previous - they are second-tier athletes (no WRs, no Olympic golds).
Someone said Webb - but he had only one good season and is barely third-thier athlete.
I'll tell ya that you all forgot the man who had perhaps even greater range than Aouita and that was Kip Keino. Like Aouita, he went down from contesting 10k at the '68 Olympics to steeple and even 800m in '72.
Apart from his WRs at 3 and 5k in '65, his legendary 1500m gold in Mexico that is still the greatest Oly performance in 1500m final, three CG golds, he run 28:06 10k just before the Games - third fastest ever for the distance, still 27 secs behind Clarke's WR.
In '72, just before the Olympics he ran 800m PR of 1:46.4 - only 2.1 seconds behind existing WR and than won another Olympic gold in 3000msc, missing the WR by 1.6 secs in a tactical final.
If you translate his performances to year 2020 his times would be abnormal
Look at the line -
800m - 1:43.0
1500m - 3:27.8
mile - 3:45.1 (run 3.53.1 in altitude race in Kenya on cinders)
3000m - 7:20.6
5000m - 12:43
10000m - 26:38
AND
steeplechase - 7:55.2
That was Kip from 1965 to 1972.
Sadly, there's no runner nearly capable of that today.
The only big change I would make would be to weight recent runners more heavily. Zatopek was an icon in his time, but does anyone truly think he was better than say Hagos Gebrhiwet? Zatopek's times are hardly faster than Gidey's, and Kutz came soon after and lopped large chucks off of his records. Surely, Zatopek would be dramatically faster today, but is there any indication that he could have dropped 5 seconds per lap?
That's just an example. To a lesser extent, I'd do this for all pre-1990 runners. (Timothy Cheruiyot is ranked behind at least 9 per-1990 1500m men) It's a judgement call, though, and I can certainly see why you made the decision you did.
Obviously, this list was written pre-Tokyo, but even back then I would have had Kipchoge higher. I would have the same top 5 as you, but in this order:
1) Bekele
2) El Guerrouj
3) Kipchoge
4) Gebrselassie
5) Rudisha
2,3,4 is super close. But I think each of the top 4 was as dominant as Rudisha, but their dominance was broader (and in some cases deeper). Rudisha was only a threat on the world stage in one event, and it's not like he set a killer 600m or 1000m WR either. Still, an incredibly impressive 5th.
Would love to see an update. Did you ever do a similar list for women?
The only big change I would make would be to weight recent runners more heavily. Zatopek was an icon in his time, but does anyone truly think he was better than say Hagos Gebrhiwet? Zatopek's times are hardly faster than Gidey's, and Kutz came soon after and lopped large chucks off of his records. Surely, Zatopek would be dramatically faster today, but is there any indication that he could have dropped 5 seconds per lap?
That's just an example. To a lesser extent, I'd do this for all pre-1990 runners. (Timothy Cheruiyot is ranked behind at least 9 per-1990 1500m men) It's a judgement call, though, and I can certainly see why you made the decision you did.
Obviously, this list was written pre-Tokyo, but even back then I would have had Kipchoge higher. I would have the same top 5 as you, but in this order:
1) Bekele
2) El Guerrouj
3) Kipchoge
4) Gebrselassie
5) Rudisha
2,3,4 is super close. But I think each of the top 4 was as dominant as Rudisha, but their dominance was broader (and in some cases deeper). Rudisha was only a threat on the world stage in one event, and it's not like he set a killer 600m or 1000m WR either. Still, an incredibly impressive 5th.
Would love to see an update. Did you ever do a similar list for women?
Thanks for the post. I haven’t done a similar list for women—maybe someday. To be honest, it would require me to do considerably more research to determine my order, particularly beyond the top 30 or so.
I will update and slightly rework this list at some point, maybe at the conclusion of this coming outdoor season. Jakob Ingebrigtsen and Selemon Barega have both earned spots on the list. Jacob Kiplimo has obviously impressed, and should make the list one day, but for now I’d hold off until his crazy half marathons can be better contextualized within the “super shoe” era, or he does something special on the track.
Hicham's insistence on having his teammate sacrifice his race to set the pace during Global championships knocks him down a peg for me, and below Rudisha/Geb/Kipchoge to #5 all time. All those guys were willing to push up front in global finals to win, seems a bit soft El G wasnt willing to do that, even at shorter distances than Bekele did.
Undoubtedly the greatest time trialer to ever step foot on the track though.
Viren above doorbell mo because of all the world records. Ovett above Rono because of the Olympic medals and the range and head to head. Ryun top ten easily. Geb number two. Herb number one because he always won.
And - Kip Keino is still the greatest Kenyan atlete of all time (top 5 ever). My reason why...
Aouita was the only runner ranked No.1 in 800, 1500, 5000 and 10000m, but other greats like Kenenisa, Geb or Kipchoge also had a great range from 1500 to marathon. For Geb and Kenny B. i think they were capable of sub 3:30 1500.
People are also throwing names such as Choge or Lagat, but in comparison with previous - they are second-tier athletes (no WRs, no Olympic golds).
Someone said Webb - but he had only one good season and is barely third-thier athlete.
I'll tell ya that you all forgot the man who had perhaps even greater range than Aouita and that was Kip Keino. Like Aouita, he went down from contesting 10k at the '68 Olympics to steeple and even 800m in '72.
Apart from his WRs at 3 and 5k in '65, his legendary 1500m gold in Mexico that is still the greatest Oly performance in 1500m final, three CG golds, he run 28:06 10k just before the Games - third fastest ever for the distance, still 27 secs behind Clarke's WR.
In '72, just before the Olympics he ran 800m PR of 1:46.4 - only 2.1 seconds behind existing WR and than won another Olympic gold in 3000msc, missing the WR by 1.6 secs in a tactical final.
If you translate his performances to year 2020 his times would be abnormal
Look at the line -
800m - 1:43.0
1500m - 3:27.8
mile - 3:45.1 (run 3.53.1 in altitude race in Kenya on cinders)
3000m - 7:20.6
5000m - 12:43
10000m - 26:38
AND
steeplechase - 7:55.2
That was Kip from 1965 to 1972.
Sadly, there's no runner nearly capable of that today.
And - Kip Keino is still the greatest Kenyan atlete of all time (top 5 ever). My reason why...
Aouita was the only runner ranked No.1 in 800, 1500, 5000 and 10000m, but other greats like Kenenisa, Geb or Kipchoge also had a great range from 1500 to marathon. For Geb and Kenny B. i think they were capable of sub 3:30 1500.
People are also throwing names such as Choge or Lagat, but in comparison with previous - they are second-tier athletes (no WRs, no Olympic golds).
Someone said Webb - but he had only one good season and is barely third-thier athlete.
I'll tell ya that you all forgot the man who had perhaps even greater range than Aouita and that was Kip Keino. Like Aouita, he went down from contesting 10k at the '68 Olympics to steeple and even 800m in '72.
Apart from his WRs at 3 and 5k in '65, his legendary 1500m gold in Mexico that is still the greatest Oly performance in 1500m final, three CG golds, he run 28:06 10k just before the Games - third fastest ever for the distance, still 27 secs behind Clarke's WR.
In '72, just before the Olympics he ran 800m PR of 1:46.4 - only 2.1 seconds behind existing WR and than won another Olympic gold in 3000msc, missing the WR by 1.6 secs in a tactical final.
If you translate his performances to year 2020 his times would be abnormal
Look at the line -
800m - 1:43.0
1500m - 3:27.8
mile - 3:45.1 (run 3.53.1 in altitude race in Kenya on cinders)
3000m - 7:20.6
5000m - 12:43
10000m - 26:38
AND
steeplechase - 7:55.2
That was Kip from 1965 to 1972.
Sadly, there's no runner nearly capable of that today.
and here’s numbers 2, 3, and 4
I’ll defend my position so i’m not just insulting you, but you deserve it.
It is downright offense to omit kipchoge on a top 10 list. He beat El G and Bekele at 18 years old for a global gold and got a few more medals on the track.
He is by far the greatest marathoner of all time. Split his career in half and he’s 1 and 2. And he’s still going. 1st, 3rd, and 4th fastest ever. 1, 2, 3, 5, and 6 unless you believe alternating pacers saved 3 minutes. Absolutely historic performances punching the boundaries of human beings. Utter dominance in an event unmatched by every distance runner bar KB, Geb, and Hicham.
He also has some of the greatest longevity ever, winning global golds 18 years (and counting) apart.
To say he’s worse than nurmi and zatopek is horrible. No one should care about era specific dominance if the competition they faced was the worst the sport has ever seen. The entire continent of africa couldn’t compete! I’d bet everything I own kipchoge would beat zatopek (given modern training and tech) in every event and by 5+ minutes in the marathon. And I could pick some random kenyan teenager off a track in eldoret to beat nurmi. They raced nobodies.
Mo farah and seb coe are less egregious but still terrible picks over eliud.
Lagat isn’t top 10 (or barely so) but B-tier?? THE greatest longevity ever, second fastest 1500 ever, double world gold, and close losses to the greatest 1500m runner ever is B-tier?? Put farah in bekeles era and he’s C tier by your standards but instead he’s better than eliud kipchoge?
And these fanciful conversions for kip keino must be why you think nurmi is better than kipchoge. I’m sure his quintuple gold medals would hold up because he’d run 12:38 in 2022
I’ll defend my position so i’m not just insulting you, but you deserve it.
It is downright offense to omit kipchoge on a top 10 list. He beat El G and Bekele at 18 years old for a global gold and got a few more medals on the track.
He is by far the greatest marathoner of all time. Split his career in half and he’s 1 and 2. And he’s still going. 1st, 3rd, and 4th fastest ever. 1, 2, 3, 5, and 6 unless you believe alternating pacers saved 3 minutes. Absolutely historic performances punching the boundaries of human beings. Utter dominance in an event unmatched by every distance runner bar KB, Geb, and Hicham.
He also has some of the greatest longevity ever, winning global golds 18 years (and counting) apart.
To say he’s worse than nurmi and zatopek is horrible. No one should care about era specific dominance if the competition they faced was the worst the sport has ever seen. The entire continent of africa couldn’t compete! I’d bet everything I own kipchoge would beat zatopek (given modern training and tech) in every event and by 5+ minutes in the marathon. And I could pick some random kenyan teenager off a track in eldoret to beat nurmi. They raced nobodies.
Mo farah and seb coe are less egregious but still terrible picks over eliud.
Lagat isn’t top 10 (or barely so) but B-tier?? THE greatest longevity ever, second fastest 1500 ever, double world gold, and close losses to the greatest 1500m runner ever is B-tier?? Put farah in bekeles era and he’s C tier by your standards but instead he’s better than eliud kipchoge?
And these fanciful conversions for kip keino must be why you think nurmi is better than kipchoge. I’m sure his quintuple gold medals would hold up because he’d run 12:38 in 2022
Like sure you can still believe that nonsense after Jakob Ingebrigtsen.
Nurmi and Zatopek with modern training and tech would be...well at least an Ingebrigsten.
It's the modern competition that is garbage. The native populations of the traditional powerhouses have declined, and participation has declined even more relative to population size, leaving the sport to be dominated by a tiny strip of East Africa.
You're assuming that Kipchoge is 100 x the talent of Nurmi because of the difference in times. There must be a serious IQ problem with athletics fans if they are still hung up about times in the era of super shoes. Never mind the copious quantities of an endurance drug that likely shaves at least 5 minutes off of marathon times that Kipchoge has almost certainy been taken since his mid-teens. But then your name is 'freekiprop'.
Zatopek literally trained in the bath!
However, I agree with you it's a terrible list, although he's obviously spent a lot of time creating mini-biographies of each athlete, which is the only good thing about it.
I’ll defend my position so i’m not just insulting you, but you deserve it.
It is downright offense to omit kipchoge on a top 10 list. He beat El G and Bekele at 18 years old for a global gold and got a few more medals on the track.
He is by far the greatest marathoner of all time. Split his career in half and he’s 1 and 2. And he’s still going. 1st, 3rd, and 4th fastest ever. 1, 2, 3, 5, and 6 unless you believe alternating pacers saved 3 minutes. Absolutely historic performances punching the boundaries of human beings. Utter dominance in an event unmatched by every distance runner bar KB, Geb, and Hicham.
He also has some of the greatest longevity ever, winning global golds 18 years (and counting) apart.
To say he’s worse than nurmi and zatopek is horrible. No one should care about era specific dominance if the competition they faced was the worst the sport has ever seen. The entire continent of africa couldn’t compete! I’d bet everything I own kipchoge would beat zatopek (given modern training and tech) in every event and by 5+ minutes in the marathon. And I could pick some random kenyan teenager off a track in eldoret to beat nurmi. They raced nobodies.
Mo farah and seb coe are less egregious but still terrible picks over eliud.
Lagat isn’t top 10 (or barely so) but B-tier?? THE greatest longevity ever, second fastest 1500 ever, double world gold, and close losses to the greatest 1500m runner ever is B-tier?? Put farah in bekeles era and he’s C tier by your standards but instead he’s better than eliud kipchoge?
And these fanciful conversions for kip keino must be why you think nurmi is better than kipchoge. I’m sure his quintuple gold medals would hold up because he’d run 12:38 in 2022
Like sure you can still believe that nonsense after Jakob Ingebrigtsen.
Nurmi and Zatopek with modern training and tech would be...well at least an Ingebrigsten.
Any particular reason you seem interested in propping up the white runners? Is that like a hobby type deal?