Elijah Manangoi provisionally suspended for whereabouts failures

Sapel wrote:

Whereabout failures during COVID Pandemic should be annulled. These guys have life going on in poor nations.

I go to work five days each week in Manhattan in New York City, a COVID-19 red zone, via subway, and I live here seven days per week. Attributing whereabouts failures to the COVID pandemic is lame.

If my own (Commonwealth) country produced a stream of doping violations like that coming out of Kenya I would consider our national sport a disgrace and corrupted to the core. There would be nothing to support as a fan. That is not to say that doping will not be going on somewhere in my country, but the analogy might be that there could be a few instances of white-collar crime as distinct from a general climate of corruption and fraud. As there appears to be in Kenyan running.

Armstronglivs wrote:

If my own (Commonwealth) country produced a stream of doping violations like that coming out of Kenya I would consider our national sport a disgrace and corrupted to the core. There would be nothing to support as a fan. That is not to say that doping will not be going on somewhere in my country, but the analogy might be that there could be a few instances of white-collar crime as distinct from a general climate of corruption and fraud. As there appears to be in Kenyan running.

Never fear...just transfer your country of representation to qatar...or bahrain...or turkey. Problem solved!

Alll wrote:

https://www.athleticsintegrity.org/disciplinary-process/provisional-suspensions-in-force

When you're gonna fail, you might as well bail...

Armstronglivs wrote:

If my own (Commonwealth) country produced a stream of doping violations like that coming out of Kenya I would consider our national sport a disgrace and corrupted to the core. There would be nothing to support as a fan. That is not to say that doping will not be going on somewhere in my country, but the analogy might be that there could be a few instances of white-collar crime as distinct from a general climate of corruption and fraud. As there appears to be in Kenyan running.

I agree, as does everyone until it happens to 'their' athletes.

We need some more pragmatism here for the good of the sport.

Clay wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

If my own (Commonwealth) country produced a stream of doping violations like that coming out of Kenya I would consider our national sport a disgrace and corrupted to the core. There would be nothing to support as a fan. That is not to say that doping will not be going on somewhere in my country, but the analogy might be that there could be a few instances of white-collar crime as distinct from a general climate of corruption and fraud. As there appears to be in Kenyan running.

I agree, as does everyone until it happens to 'their' athletes.

We need some more pragmatism here for the good of the sport.

I think I just said that I would consider national sport in my country lost if it produced the amount of doping that is coming out of Kenya.

OG Coconino Cowboy wrote:

Biggest bust since Kiprop......

Just as big as the Kiprop bust, in my opinion. Asbel Kiprop always seemed like a bit of a clown. I actually think it's possible Kiprop was clean until he started struggling around ~2016. Managoi was in a reputable training group so if he's dirty then that casts some doubt on his training partners.

Armstronglivs wrote:

Clay wrote:

I agree, as does everyone until it happens to 'their' athletes.

We need some more pragmatism here for the good of the sport.

I think I just said that I would consider national sport in my country lost if it produced the amount of doping that is coming out of Kenya.

Sorry, this was not meant for you, more the population at large .....

You clearly have a pragmatic approach ......

Maybe preaching to the choir here, but my thoughts on whereabouts failures in a thread:

https://twitter.com/geoffreyburns/status/1286335636069384193?s=21

THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:

Yeah, let’s see if it holds up.Whereabouts failures are thoroughly unsatisfying.

Whereabouts failures are the equivalent of Al Capone being locked up for tax evasion. It may not be as glamorous as an EPO bust, but suspensions over whereabouts failures still keep dirty athletes from competing, so it’s still a win for anti-doping. That is, as long as AIU doesn’t accept lame excuses and lift the suspension, lol.

Hardloper wrote:

Managoi was in a reputable training group so if he's dirty then that casts some doubt on his training partners.

There are runners that are not consistent in their performances, and those that are consistent. I was very suspicious about Elijah for that reason, and for the same reason I firmly beliveve that Tim is clean.

Good stuff. I think you come down a bit harsher on it than I do. Ultimately as they hopefully refine the process, there aren't the loopholes (Gabby Thomas et al) that have shown some flaws in the system. It should be professionalized. Arrive at designated time. Knock and record knock. Call at 30 minutes in. Wait 30 minutes if no response. Knock again and record. That's a failure.

I think the system is fair, but I can't say I know Manangoi is a doper. If it was as simple as he missed the tests because he was doping/dodging than why didn't it happen in 2017 or 2018. He competes frequently on the circuit, I count ~11 times international in 2017/2018. Why was he suddenly dodging/doping in a year he barely even competed in? What was the incentive?

I wish we knew more about each individual case and could draw more conclusions off of it. These guys are drug-tested at meets, there is a biological passport, and all of the data points we are not privy to. I get why we can't, it's just oversimplification to say every whereabouts victim is a doper, even if I agree they should be treated like one because that is necessary to the system.

Semiler wrote:

There are runners that are not consistent in their performances, and those that are consistent. I was very suspicious about Elijah for that reason, and for the same reason I firmly beliveve that Tim is clean.

I can't really see this one. He had 2 duds in 2017-18 and they were both indoors. 2019 was up and down but injury-laden.

If we are to assume that the dodging/doping thing is what he did it basically means he was doing something undetectable in 2017-2018 and lost faith in that UNLESS he dodged tests in those years (but just 2 each).

Here is the most plausible Manangoi is a doper story.

2019 he had some good performances, but got hurt in May destroying his form. After a disastrous race in Stockholm and then Oregon, he got desperate and began to dope. He dodged tests in the summer before a very solid drug-aided performance at the Kenyan trials. Then instead of competing at Worlds, he bailed citing injury in hopes he wouldn't get busted or get randomly tested while "tending to his injuries."

THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:

I think the system is fair, but I can't say I know Manangoi is a doper. If it was as simple as he missed the tests because he was doping/dodging than why didn't it happen in 2017 or 2018. He competes frequently on the circuit, I count ~11 times international in 2017/2018. Why was he suddenly dodging/doping in a year he barely even competed in? What was the incentive?

There was no WADA-accredited lab in East Africa until August of 2018, so the out-of-competition testing was drastically smaller pre-2019, and the biological passport was thus effectively useless (if the only data points are at competitions).

Moreover, to one of my points in the thread - you don’t even get targeted for out-of-competition testing until you start posting big results, so he probably came on the radar in 2017/2018, and then was likely under heavy scrutiny in 2019 (especially if he missed any tests in 2018).

Burnsy wrote:

There was no WADA-accredited lab in East Africa until August of 2018, so the out-of-competition testing was drastically smaller pre-2019, and the biological passport was thus effectively useless (if the only data points are at competitions).

Moreover, to one of my points in the thread - you don’t even get targeted for out-of-competition testing until you start posting big results, so he probably came on the radar in 2017/2018, and then was likely under heavy scrutiny in 2019 (especially if he missed any tests in 2018).

I don't think you know Manangoi as well as you should. He was second in the world in 2015. He's not some new face. He's posted big results since a 3:29.6 1500 in Monaco in 2015.

If he was tested an insignificant amount of times before the lab in 2018 and/or he dodged OOC tests we should know. We can speculate that is the case, sure.

THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:

I can't really see this one. He had 2 duds in 2017-18 and they were both indoors. 2019 was up and down but injury-laden.

Sure, both Kiprop and Elijah showed great fitness in 2017 and 2018. Both Elijah and brother George ran very fast in Doha early may 2019, and then run extremely slow in Stockholm late may 2019. The talk about injuries is not consistent, and looking at the video of Elijah running in Stockholm there is nothing that indicates any injury consistent with his claims. He then talks about WR in Monaco and moving on to 5K and Marathon.

Let's face it. There are other runners only suddenly showing up after a long stay in their home country, and then runs slower and slower as the races go by. Then they have another stay back home and the same story over again.

Maybe...

His brother ran 3:31 in Monaco for a massive PB in June. He won the African games. He bombed out in Doha, but it's not like that's too surprising. Asbel Kiprop didn't run in 2018 and his form in 2017 was highly mediocre. I don't think your arguments make a ton of sense.

Two articles on Manangoi's injury struggles in 2019 below. Anyone who's suffered a nagging hamstring can assert it is plausible to "look fine," but be unable to compete at a top level at full speed. He then says he picked up an ankle injury in training after competing at the Kenyan championships (he won vs. a soft field)

Is it possible Manangoi's absences are related to his travel for medical help throughout the season? We've seen athletes forget to update whereabouts then. Anyhow looking forward to learning more.

http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2019-07/11/c_138215812.htm

http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2019-09/16/c_138396228.htm

THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:

I don't think your arguments make a ton of sense.

Horror race in late May. Go back to Africa. Then, despite injuries and everything starts talking about setting a WR. Go have a look at the Stockholm 1500m. Do not skip the intro of the racers as Elijah has a very funny face.