Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

Let's play a game JS. Who knows more about what is a better training method: Henrik, who learnt from Gert, who learned from Marius Bakken, the same Henrik who is training his brother Kristoffer, who was the inspiration for this thread.... Or you? A man who repeatably claims magic is at the centre of his training regimes, has lied about virtually everyone he's coached and who even fellow Swedes , confirm is a mad man,bordering on full psycho.

You know what, I'll give you a clue. The correct answer isn't you.

I wear it for every run which I think is recommended. I can see after awhile just wearing it for workouts though once it calibrates

Can definitely see why it’s far inferior to cycling power meters. It’s all algorithm based from what I understand so has its limitations for sure. It’s a useful data point for me at least because when the critical power increases it’s usually a good indicator of increased fitness and a cue to adjust pace

Running power measurements may be inferior to a direct-measurement power meter, but most running power meters are repeatable and Apple, Stryd, and Coros all are very close. All of my CPs estimated from an old non-wind Stryd, next-gen Stryd, Coros, and Apple power are all within about 5-7% watts. Very close.

Stryds power correlates 0.99 with VO2 on my track workouts. Stryd power correlates very will with my lactate measurements at the track.

One of my athletes doesn't even use a watch. He just wears stryd and uploads the data to TP, which goes to my WKO. Easy peasy. Great intensity control.

Just one way to try to accomplish this training without a lactate meter.

The first sentence here is my main take away from the thread. The most important thing to pay attention to is not Sweat Elite, podcasts, Letsrun 'best workout' threads, etc etc, it's YOURSELF. There are numerous metrics to do so, how you measure is up to you. I see it as an optimisation problem - for elites, its about maximum training stress for minimum overtraining/injury risk. For us HJs, its the same, but with a fixed 'spare time available' component.

I tried the spoc/Kristoffer system this week, just did my third workout this morning. Felt so controlled and purposeful, and have done more actual 'work' than past weeks with monstrous VO2 sessions. I actually like the routine of it - there's no room for excuses, no uncertainty about what workouts you are going to thrash yourself on in a given week. I guess we'll see how it stacks up in 6 months. But I don't think I've ever been this excited about my training.

That is interesting.

@triplethreshold: the Stryd Pod itself is not a self learning device. It is maybe the user which learns from the data. There is no artifical intelligence included. The Stryd Pod has a altitude, wind and an acceleration sensor included. So gravitation, wind and movement is uses to calculate a power number.The philosophy of this power number is to be equivalent to a VO2 consumption value.

And guess what? The critical power Stryd provides is equivalent to the critical velocity i mentioned several times here. Suprise - suprise. And this is not LT2 !! LT2 is a little bit lower as CV.

First, a correction, Tinman stated 3.0 mmol for the 1.10*(5K_Race_Pace) conversion, not 3.5 mmol as I wrote. In fact, here is the link to that thread. Jack Daniels (jtupper) posts on it too. They were talking about this 19 years ago! Tinman references Jan Olbrecht on the thread. His book, The Science of Winning, is an excellent source for those interested in how bioenergetics and lactate interplay, as well as the athletes individual physiology. Btw, I believe he was the originator of the 30 min TT that cycling coaches later picked up and called Functional Threshold. He didn’t think it anymore useful than other tests though because it didn’t provide any insight into what the mechanism driving the results was. Sorry lexel LOL

With that out of the way, I agree with the sentiment that we all agree on the generalities of this training approach. I don’t think there is one definitive way you have to train. To me, the superior way is the way that gets you fit and keeps you progressing and inspired!

@Unbelief. There is such a range of terminology and quantification when it comes to LT1 and LT2 that I would never say, “It has to be this value.” I only gave the values to share what Tinman wrote (even though I did so incorrectly). I’m not that dogmatic nor insistent LOL.

I’ve seen LT1 (the initial rise in lactate above baseline), given as 2.0-2.5 mmol in the research. I’ve even seen some refer to it as a 1.0 mmol rise above baseline. This is part of my point on why runners without a lactate meter (even those with one who are disinclined to order more strips) can use paces at different time durations and be confident they are in the correct range. Personally, as sirpoc has also shared, I go by effort. I know the feeling I want to have at different stages of the workout and try to tune in to that sensory data. I find it’s also helpful to have that ability to utilize in races to properly allocate your energy.

There is however a positive linear relationship between oxygen up take and intensity. That relationship, averaged for all runners is what allows for the race and training pace formulas we see from Daniels and others like Tinman and Mcmillan. Those make use of the fact that the percentage of ones VO2 Max being used for any given duration is the same. If you set a distance, say 10K, and one runner covers it in 30 minutes and the other in 40 minutes, those runners will be at approximately 93% and 91% of their VO2Max, respectively. However, set time as the standard and both athletes will be working at the same relative effort in relation to their max but one will cover more distance in that time.

All that bloviating to say, equating workouts and workload is likely more accurate and easily achieved by using pace in relation to max effort for a duration, not lactate. That’s largely why, forced to by no one but myself, I’d advocate 30 minute, 60 minute, 90 minute, and 150 minute race paces. One it allows for variety, which it’s said is the spice of life. Two, it spans the spectrum of intensities which show really good bang for your buck, while also fitting into the “Tempo Training” approach we are discussing. Plus, it’s sustainable over the long term.

In the context of the three workouts per week and very much in line with what sirpoc is doing already would be the following

1. 90 sec repeats @ 30 min RP = 1.03*5K_Pace
2. 3 min repeats @ 60 min RP = 1.07*5K_Pace
3. 6 min repeats @ 90 min RP = 1.10*5K_Pace

A fourth option for when the kids are at the grandparents and the wife is on a Real Housewives bender.

4. 12 min repeats @ 150 min RP = 1.13*5KPace

You could use 1 min recoveries for all of those and just scale the volume to suit your fitness and savagery.

That's great mate, keep it up and I'm sure the thread would love to hear updates.. One thing I will add, I almost "quit" after about 3-4 weeks as literally nothing was happening, just assuming it didn't apply to running, to train this way, even though I had success cycling - and that KI must be doing something magic I couldn't replicate.

But then there was a sudden breakthrough, I think I took like about 20 seconds+ off my 5k PB all of a sudden on about the 5th or 6th week. I have no idea why, other than it was maybe a combo of the new training taking some small effect with the gradual increased overall load , but mainly for my body to come out of the cycle of being so tired all the time and really in general feeling stiff and battered, as suddenly I felt fresher.

I don't hate this at all and this is very much in the spirit of the thread of trying to lay this out for hobby joggers. I can only speak for people I know in real life, but I know they would be more likely to follow this as *most* hobby joggers I know do regular parkruns, (I'm UK based so there's 3 parkruns in my city alone every Saturday) so being on 5k time without having to then convert themselves to CV and then into another % of that pace, keeps it simple. I think. Which ultimately is what we are trying to do. This is even easier than me saying to my absolute beginner friend, who just wants to run, but start out doing some intervals , go run 5x1k at 15k Pace.

FWIW , over time I would guess looking at those paces they are about what I would already target (not always hit, +-1%) and that over time, for me, would probably even out all the distances to roughly the same amount of lactate, comparing sessions.

In fact, the most variable distance in terms of lactate for me, are the 5x2k sessions. That has had the widest range, when I have tested . Right down to 2.1 mmol once and absolutely up to the limit, another time. I've noticed this for KI as well on his longer repeats. I've also not noticed my pace being way too fast or his either. I've noticed this is the distance/ time you haven't covered. Around 7-9 minutes. Maybe that's the range the body is less predictable. Just a side note anyway.

I have to post this video now, explains a lot and saves a lot of tying work.

Please do, educate us

Sounds great! I like having a schedule like this because it helps to take the 'performance anxiety' stress out of the equation.

It's actually more liberating when you are just following along rather than trying to prep for some technical workout that will involve far far too much time and prep just to do the damn thing.

You do a session that you probably can finish -- if you arent feeling great on that day, just chuck it and move on, you got 2 more in the week. So you're good to go.

Also, you will be able to track your progress pretty easily, with or without lactate, especially if you at least use a HR strap. You will start noticing little ques in your workouts that will tell you a lot about the workout and how you are feeling on that given day that you can go by. From using lactate/HR you can guess a lot of these significant events/when you are starting to drift into domains of stress you arent intending to.

Look at all these Jakob interviews. They are always trying to ask him about one workout and he's just like 'yeah, doesnt matter. Not using the workouts to predict my race times.' or 'thats just one workout in this whole system'

Yeah! Let´s play that game.. )) Gjert copied Bakken and then used it on his super talented sons inclusive the daughter who didn`t do so well. I have a very different experience than Gjert. I have during over 50 years studied and performed practically many of the most successful training methods in history and from that developed my own method that of course has nothing to do with magic, just the results from it looks to be magical.I have never lied about the runners I have coached to quite impressing results on relativelly short coaching time in many cases. How is it even possible you can believe this can be performed by a mad man bordering on full psycho? You are really too much buddy, LoL ))

This thread is not about you. You are not welcome here unless you have something useful to say, or questions to ask.

Your lies have been exposed dozens of times.

This thread has amazing quality so go away, because your posts and arrogant posture bring down the level here.

Just leave.

We already all know the genesis of the system and the history of its implementation.

We, of course, are not discussing that system here or adopting it, since most of us would be ruined by it in no time.

What we are doing, which should be obvious, is MODIFYING it to work for us.

We know you are very desperate to 'help' but it always borders on a scene from Macbeth.

So if you have some interesting data or personal experience or what have you, fire away. Otherwise, im not sure how the repetition of past accomplishments by other runners pushes forward this particular line of conversation and collaboration on a very narrow subtopic of training.

I've been on this forum since almost the start. When you first showed up I legit thought you were a troll. After many of the threads over the years I think you are actually, just a mixture of insane and deluded. Do you literally hear what you are saying?

Without dodging the issue. Please read the thread. Then question 1. How could SPOC84 maximise his training, or more to the point, how would you make him faster? Please bare in mind he's outlined his previous training. And his training now. 2. How would you coach Kristoffer? Again, please bare in mind he is currently being coached by Henrik. So how would you make him faster? All his training is on Strava. So there are no secrets. 3. How would you coach Jacob? Do you think he is sub his potential, I am guessing?

Well, firstly let`s make it very clear in two things, 1) I`m far from being insane nor deluded.)) 2) Let`s make it clear to everyone that the so called " The Norwegian method" is nothing new! The people like me who knows the running history can just tell it`s a variant of methods very successful before, one example the so called " The Italian wonder" back in the -70s with runners like Alberto Cova, Salvatore Antibo and so on. Does this come to you as a big surprise I guess? Already back then they did " double thresholds". As some commentators in this thread already told this way of training threshold functions best with high mileage because the threshold pace is not individual optimal to trigger the lactate threshold development on low mileage.

So, now to your questions. How would I coach SPOC 84, Kristoffer and the mighty Jakob Ingebrigtsen? Well, it doesn`t matter their different levels. What`s important to them all is this practical fundamental expression, " Listen to your heart". The individual heart is always telling you the shape of the day . Then you have to know at what effort you have to work to give the very best outcome of your workouts and easy runs.

When going the low mileage way the lactate threshold training have to be most effective and more direct and close to "maximum individual threshold pace" in just one single session on a day compared to the "double thresholds" on lower concentration of lactate.

I of course believe I could get Jakob running even faster at all distances with my method, but that hypothesis of course we will never get to know if it`s correct or not .))

Just a little correction. The Italian wonder back in the -80s.

I know I’ve been presenting a lot of formulaic ideas in my last few posts, but for me personally, I don’t spend much time calculating precise paces and/or comparing past data to current. I genuinely go by effort and will look at paces and heart rate, and BLa readings (when I was testing) after the workout. I often experiment with different workout formats each year too.

I got into doing workouts that always totaled 60 minutes several years ago. I simplified it down to three variation. A straight 60 minute tempo, tempo intervals with a 4:1 run to recovery ratio (so could be 12*4 min w/ 1 min up to 3*16 min w/ 4 min), and a fartlek with a 1:1 run to recovery ratio (typically 30*1min On/Off or 15*2min On/ Off). I observed that I would approximately average marathon pace on each of them, even though I was running different paces during the tempo, intervals, and fartlek.

One could always scale that down (or up) and get essentially the same physiological benefit as the workouts I listed in the previous post. I really don’t think there is a magic set of workouts, more importantly a magic effort to tap into consistently over time to build fitness and enjoy the process! Anyway… LOL

Regarding your variation in BLa on the 2K repeats, interesting! My initial reaction would be that the pace you are running for them is flirting with your LT2. If you look at plots of BLa as a function of a constant pace run over time, for the first 5 minutes or so, there is not always a significant rise in the reading when comparing a pace that steady states versus the next speed up that causes the lactate to rise precipitously. However, around 10 minutes, there will be a separation and then a further separation at each interval thereafter for however long the readings are taken.

Btw, per your suggestion, I have really been looking into the TSS and CTL. I need some time to code everything up but along the lines of what you mentioned about trying to optimize your time training to get to the level you want is where I’m going with that. I’m going to try and work on it this weekend. May produce something interesting, may be a bust LOL