I would say that by now it can no longer be the "fault" of the Kenyan "doctors" but only that of the athletes.
I would say that by now it can no longer be the "fault" of the Kenyan "doctors" but only that of the athletes.
Interesting argument.2:06 / 2:20 is probably a good line to start asking questions. I can believe that some great runners can run really fast but the sheer number of people running 2:06 now is crazy.Canova's argument that Sumgong is not elite is ... not well thought out. I think she had several minutes on great runners like Shalane, who has run 2:21.
It's not a good a idea to have absolutely no wiggle room at all. What if I sabbotage you by dropping testosterone into your normal massage cream and as a result, you test positive, and it can be proved (on camera or admission of guilt) that I did this? There has to be some room for understanding.[/quote]
Then you pray to GOD you are coached by Alberto Salazar, who has been preparing for that moment his entire coaching career!
CANOVA, - EPO LETS YOU RECOVER MUCH BETTER AFTER HARD DAYS? GO TALK WITH CYCLISTS FROM THE TOUR DE FRANCE, THEY WILL TELL YOU EVERYTHING YOU NEED TO KNOW.
the problem with this EPO discussion, is that the people that have trained on EPO, I'm not seeing them in the discussion.
I'm going by what EPO users that were caught, what they said about using, also Victor Conte has got a bunch of testimony..
The verdict is, EPO ain't just blood doping, like an infusion, like Viren ni 72,76, like Yos Hermans himself and various schemes for his athletes moving forward,,
and most of Europe distance guys, they copied Viren,...
EPO aids recovery, not by a little, not by a moderate amount, but to super human levels, that is as reported by Conte's athletes, tour cyclists.
Just check out Komen's 3k world record after he raced only a few days before.
Of course Komen did not test positive, but that's EPO.
Why don't answer my question?
yyy wrote:
Every time RC posts about EPO on LRC, he is getting exposed.
This will help clean up the sport.
He is brave, I will give him that.
Keep up the good work, RC!!
Brace, cocky, arrogant, stupid, ignorant or foolish?
I wish the IAAF would target all his athletes for surprise OOC DRUG TRESTS!
So much easier wrote:
meekMike wrote:I have been fascinated by this statement and how you state it as a "fact". Do you have a scientific background in physiology and evidence that would prove this claim to be "fact?" I hope not, because the only you could make a statement like that, and come to that conclusion is if you experimented on your runners with EPO while doing higher intensity training at altitude. There is no other way to test your hypothesis without first admitting to testing EPO on your athletes while at altitude.
Just like Salazar and the testosterone cream experiment.
That's just so wacky it's likely true!
Murder is an apples and oranges comparison, as most murders are "crimes of passion," athletic doping is planned and calculated, never a spur of the moment decision... (of course someone can take some extra dose in an "emergency," like the American who won the TDF by taking some "extra" testosterone on one stage etc., but was likely previous and otherwise doping.)
"your not the smartest coach "
- Irony is beautiful.
Thanks for the response Mr. Canova, I must first admit that I have no background in science and had to look the word "physiology" up in the dictionary before asking if you had background in the subject. And yes I am not blind I can see that you have typed a bunch of self aggrandizing words in response that didn't give any sort of answer. I asked how you knew 100% that what you are saying about EPO use at altitude is true? How did you come to believe that, so much that you would spread it like truth? You only work with clean athletes you say but their performances would not do anything to further that belief because you wouldn't be seeing the right pieces. You would have to test you idea by training athletes while off the drug and then while on it and keeping charts and graphs (and all that sciencey stuff) seeing how their bodies responded to build a foundation of FACTS. That is the only way to get a definitive picture, and the only way that you can say if it works or not. Which is what you do. Which is why it bugs me. Because if you didn't go to that far with and don't have any sort of proof, then you know what the call that? An OPINION. I mean coaches get opinions all the time, about all kinds of different things and I am sure a coach with your storied past have a ton. But that is all it is, your opinion, and about as useful,to me as a second arseshole on my elbow.
Using "sub-2:20" in this case would not have worked. Sumgong's best marathon is 2:20:41, on a non-record eligible course. Her fastest record eligible time is 2:22:58 in London. In Rio she ran 2:24:04 (arguably worth 2:21, according to estimates from "arrs.net").Canova did not argue "Sumgong is not elite" but said "winning Olympics doesn't mean you are the best" and "Jemima Sumgong is the specialist n. 27 all-time, with a PB of 2:20:48, that represents the 50th performance all-time".When you read these statements, they are not wrong. We could say the similar things about Matt Centrowitz.Flanagan's 2:21:13.9 ranks 37th all-time performer with 66th best performance.
I'm sure he's said elsewhere that this is his opinion -- he never said he "100% knew". Just the same, an informed opinion from someone with practical experience and world class results should carry more weight than uninformed opinions from those without any practical experience.That you and others think the only way to do it is by giving EPO to your athletes, seems to say a lot about you, and others.If that's the only standard, how does everyone else here "100% know" that EPO can help athletes who are already trained to their peak "clean" potential, without having done it for themselves?There are many ways to collect data without actually doping your athletes.One way is to have access to studies of those who have done it controlled experiments.Other ways are to collect raw data. Renato has posted the blood values of his athletes (coaches can legally collect and analyze blood), arguing the assumed correlation to blood values and performance is not always there -- the best performances of athletes come at the end of the season with lower blood values. The athletes whose blood best responded at altitude were not the same ones whose performance improved.
longjack wrote:
The verdict is, EPO ain't just blood doping, like an infusion, like Viren ni 72,76, like Yos Hermans himself and various schemes for his athletes moving forward,,
and most of Europe distance guys, they copied Viren,...
EPO aids recovery, not by a little, not by a moderate amount, but to super human levels, that is as reported by Conte's athletes, tour cyclists.
^This. The EPO apologists tend to ignore that, e.g. when discussing the allegedly already perfect blood properties of wonder altitude-Kenyans.
I don't have numbers on first versus second degree murders in general, but according to the BJS, a few hundred men and women each year are charged with murdering their spouse, more than two-thirds of which are premeditated.
You could extend this to every preplanned crime and ask why would someone do it, knowing the consequences.
So let's not punish harsh because there is a chance of sabotage? We're talking about professional athletes and organizations who know very well what they are doing. My room for understanding is with all those for who a medal has been robbed. A lifetime of dedication to sport and finishing 6th, 10th, whatever, because someone named Sumgong and others cheat without serious consequences. And this has to stop.
We need to protect clean atlhetes. Dirty athletes banned for life - they can find another job. If this would be enforced, i truly believe the only ones doping would be the desperate ones, so yes there would still be people that try to cheat but far far less. Not what we see today - suspicions everywhere.
That's not at all what I wrote.
Yes. But according to you, if I'm caught on video sabotaging you, you should still be banned. Is that justice?
I agree. It's beyond frustrating for all those that do it the right way.
I agree. But there has to be some reasonable definition of "dirty." Dawn Harper Nelson is currently banned because of medication she was prescribed following a cardiac arrhythmia incident. She looked up the medication's components on the reference site, but wasn't thorough enough. Lifetime ban?
I don't think anyone taking EPO or steroids is thinking, "if I get caught, at least I can come back in two or four years." They're not imagining that they'll ever get caught. I think lifetime bans for serious offenses will help on those few cases where an athlete runs for a country that doesn't care about this fight and they're again able to compete at international championships.
Clearly Mr. Canova has more experience and expertise than all of us on this board combined. Coach, I defer to your wisdom. Come forth and teach me, for I am a blank page in an open book. I am a blank slate in your classroom of life. I am a flower bud on your tree of knowledge, ready to blossom. Let me sip your nectar.
rekrunnner wrote:
Clearly Mr. Canova has more experience and expertise than all of us on this board combined. Coach, I defer to your wisdom. Come forth and teach me, for I am a blank page in an open book. I am a blank slate in your classroom of life. I am a flower bud on your tree of knowledge, ready to blossom. Let me sip your nectar.
That's not me. Look at the spelling. And while I do think that Coach Canova is the bee's knees, drinking his nectar is an achievement that I can only fantasize about.
It's rumoured that nectar sucking is Coach's preferred injection method of EPO to his athletes.