Definiton of Aerobic and Anaerobic, lets get up to date here.

Good answers.

Regarding your weight loss question. I think it's very important that most of the weight is lost before serious training starts, othewise the runner is just getting tired with very little benefit in terms of race preparation.

Steady weight loss is actually very easy to achieve with the right mindset, which is: eat less but enjoy it more. Eat what you like as long as overall the majority of calories is healthy food. It is easy to get into this mindset with a positive attitude, but equally easy to get out of the mindset and back to old habits.

The closer you get to your goal the more seriously you should train. I think that it is unhelpful for some trainers and nutritionists to give obsese people with limited sporting background, intensive exercise programs, it just reinforces negative stereotypes about them being lazy and lacking in discipline etc. I think also that runners who want to return to former glory should not follow this type of program.

I don't think that I can improve on SlowFatMaster's answers to your question Jack.

Also, I don't know if it is a longer lever or shorter lever which generates more power, or longer tendons vs shorter tendons, I just think that those with a higher V02 max generate less elastic recoil and those with a lower VO2 max generate greater elastic recoil. Perhaps those with a higher VO2 max make up for the relatively lower recoil with more efficient muscles or greater muscle mass.

Your study of the young runners over six years is interesting and concurs with what I have read elsewhere.

The question of improvements in running economy without improvements in relative oxygen uptake does suggest improvements in running skill happening both naturally and moreso with training.

But how best to improve those skills? That is something I am constantly looking to do. Sometimes I find I can run very fast and be hardly breathing, like the time I set out to run 6x800 with 4 minutes recovery and ran the first 800m at my 1500m PR pace but during and afterwards I was breathing as though I had run much slower, whatever I was doing in that first 800 I don't know but it felt so easy. The session then went very gradually slower so I wondered about its effectiveness and how best to recreate that state of mind?

What is your second question please Jack

Not sure I agree, but I notice that you didn't list swim first, which is the way it has been done. I'd prefer to see each competitor free to go whatever order desired from a central start-finish point. OK -- but his may need some serious thought and or literature review. You weigh 160 pounds and are starting in Albuquerque, NM, headed toward San Diego, on foot. Each day the high will be 85 degrees and the overnight low, 45 F. It will be clear every day and night and everything you will wear, drink and eat must be caried in a pack on your back from the start. You may not take on any supplies from anyone. What and how much will you carry and how far will you get before you must stop the trip, due to dropping body mass by 8% or about 12 pounds? Have fun

no food, 2 gallons of water, start at sunset and go 60 miles lasting all the first night, day and next night, and half the next day before falling down.

And it would not be fun.

Tom

(I would have enough stored fuel but not enough water but water is too heavy to carry more than two gallons. I wouldn't make it out of state.)

Wellnow,

example to think of. Dirty runner Mohammed Mourhit has still his name on the european records book. Did he improve suddenly his "running skill" which caused the great improvement OR was that taking EPO and dramatically improved endurance? I´m not suggest to take EPO but just to point out the MAIN factor of improvement in distance running still is and always has been, endurance. Legally or illegally.

I would carry an ACME "human jet kit" in my back pack, and get there in about 38 minutes. I would also carry compressed oxygen, unless I've done altitude training recently, put on sun-cream, and wear aviator goggles and a leather helmet.

jtupper wrote:

...You weigh 160 pounds and are starting in Albuquerque, NM, headed toward San Diego, on foot. Each day the high will be 85 degrees and the overnight low, 45 F. It will be clear every day and night and everything you will wear, drink and eat must be caried in a pack on your back from the start. You may not take on any supplies from anyone. What and how much will you carry and how far will you get before you must stop the trip, due to dropping body mass by 8% or about 12 pounds? Have fun

I don't know how far I could go carrying just water and food. There are some amazing feat of endurance recorded with people walking for days in hot deserts without food or water. I suppose 100 miles or so would be possible.

U.N.O. wrote:

Wellnow,

example to think of. Dirty runner Mohammed Mourhit has still his name on the european records book. Did he improve suddenly his "running skill" which caused the great improvement OR was that taking EPO and dramatically improved endurance? I´m not suggest to take EPO but just to point out the MAIN factor of improvement in distance running still is and always has been, endurance. Legally or illegally.

I think you are missing the point here. Improvements in speed endurance do come mainly from improvements in skill.

If Kenenisa Bekele didn't train for a month, he would still be able to run around 28 minutes for 10000m even though his aerobic capacity would be lower than your average Joe jogger.

How much was EPO worth to a runner as good as Mourhit? 15-20 seconds over 10000m perhaps?

RonnyH wrote:

Wellnow: For distances of 5k - 1/2M, what kind of weekly training regimen do you advocate?

I don't really advocate a weekly training schedule, because I believe that developing every pace from slow to flat out sprinting is necessary to develop in all middle and long distance running. Each pace contributes and I find it impossible to do them all in a week, so I a two week plan is better.

When I ran my best 1/2 marathon I was doing long runs slow runs, long medium paced runs and long fast runs at marathon pace. My longest marathon paced run was 18 miles.

I was also doing sessions such as 6x1600 and 10x1000m.

The training brought me to a peak, where I went from struggling to finish in the top twenty in local cross country races to finishing 75th out of 1500 in my national cross country championships at the age of 40. This improvement happened in the space of a few weeks, and I think what made the difference was a change of attitude, before the improvement, I had the fitness, but not the mentality. I also did an extreme speed session of downhill 200's, where I ran flat out, but stopped before I was tired, I think this was the turning point in my training.

Regarding mitochondria, I believe that regular training maintains maximum mitochondrial density. There is a natural limit to this, but I doubt that the mileage figures often mentioned are really necessary to achieve this.

Can you imagine that Roger Bannister had anything less than maximum mitochondrial density when he ran his first sub four minute mile on 25 miles per week of medium to high intensity training?

What induces the increase (mitochondrial biogenesis)?

It seems likely that rates and amounts of glycogen usage and the ratio of glycogen to fat usage is probably the main cause. However I am skeptical that severe long term training is necessary to gain maximum mitochondrial density, since regular training will surely cause a regular increase to maximum levels.

Also we can lose mitochondrial density very quickly, since mitochondria only live for a few weeks.

Are you talking to me?

I don't doubt there's a limit, and development and maintenance is a function of how much you train.

I guess Roger Bannister had enough for the mile, but can not say if it was maximal.

I don't ever count them, but just hope I have enough for the demands of racing.

Yes I was talking to you, in reply to an earlier question. And yes there is a limit, and it isn't difficult to reach this limit, millions of us are there, it is a natural development. Mitochondrial density is directly related to absolute oxygen uptake, which as Dr. Daniels and others' studies have shown is maintained from early adolescence.

The idea that you have to do massive amounts of training for these developments to occur is another example of aerobic development dogma.

Run, bike and swim. Especially in the late Spring,

early Fall or Summer.

Run before the sun is up or at least before it is very

high in the sky, then bike and swim at the hottest part

of the day.

I think that the bike would be hampered less by the run

than the current situation where the bike precedes the

run.

Would it not be a good idea to lock this good thread?

"This should be the goal of good training; the increased awareness of control not the increased ability to hurt yourself."

I don't recall asking any question about mitochondria. Maybe you are replying to SlowFatMaster?Thanks for the clarification, but I don't have very strong opinions or any doubts specifically about mitochondria. I do assume it is one of many adaptations triggered by training. I read that mitochondrial development occurs in 6 week cycles. I imagine that after a few of these cycles, most of the significant adaptations have occurred. I also imagine that bumping mileage from 40 to 60 to 90 miles/week creates a greater stimulus, but I don't have an opinion if this stimulus results in greater mitochondrial density, as I'm basically concerned about the integrated result of all the adaptations (e.g. strength, power, stamina, endurance, speed, efficiency, and economy) and how it affects my various PBs.

wellnow wrote:

Yes I was talking to you, in reply to an earlier question. And yes there is a limit, and it isn't difficult to reach this limit, millions of us are there, it is a natural development. Mitochondrial density is directly related to absolute oxygen uptake, which as Dr. Daniels and others' studies have shown is maintained from early adolescence.

The idea that you have to do massive amounts of training for these developments to occur is another example of aerobic development dogma.

Tom: Not just an answer to you but to the many "exercise physiologists" who constantly argue around here -- very disappointing responses so far. No mention of how far would be traveled each day, how many days, what the starting weight of the pack would be, how many kg of sweat would be lost each day, or per mile of travel, what clothing would be necessary, how many hours of travel and hours of rest or sleep, etc., etc., etc. No thought at all being put into this.

Hey Jack, don't worry I'm working on it, and while I was sweating in the bath yesterday evening I had my eureka moment.

jtupper wrote:

OK -- but his may need some serious thought and or literature review. You weigh 160 pounds and are starting in Albuquerque, NM, headed toward San Diego, on foot. Each day the high will be 85 degrees and the overnight low, 45 F. It will be clear every day and night and everything you will wear, drink and eat must be caried in a pack on your back from the start. You may not take on any supplies from anyone. What and how much will you carry and how far will you get before you must stop the trip, due to dropping body mass by 8% or about 12 pounds? Have fun

I walk the whole 700 miles or so to San Diego. I wear a breathing mask connected to a pipe and an bag. As I breathe out water vapor and CO2 the water vapor condenses and collects in the bag and the CO2 escapes through holes in the top of the bag. I drink the water, so I only need to set out with 5 gallons of water and 20 pounds of food. I will make it to San Diego in less than 20 days.

the point could be wrote:

Would it not be a good idea to lock this good thread?

"This should be the goal of good training; the increased awareness of control not the increased ability to hurt yourself."

Thank you. Is that a quote of mine? It sounds like the sort of thing I would say. Increased awareness of control is soooooo very important, our brains are receiving so many messages when we run and when we lose that concentration, that's when we get tired, just as in any skilled task.

"I'm basically concerned about the integrated result of all the adaptations (e.g. strength, power, stamina, endurance, speed, efficiency, and economy) and how it affects my various PBs."

All of those adaptions you mention are skills, they all relate to neuro-muscular co-ordination. Economy is also partly a genetic trait, in as much as runner with a relatively low VO2max have an better economy and vice versa, but economy is also somewhat trainable, and also we can extend this economy to run at that pace for longer and longer. So rally, the word economy can be somewhat misleading as it has different components.