On the other hand, there was news that came out a few years ago that seemed to have gotten buried, rather than met with the appropriate alarm and rebuttal, possibly because it basically ‘shatters the sport’.
The news was that the test capability is so sensitive, and clandestine drug delivery by insidious means is so easy. The natural conclusion from such news is that absolutely anyone, should the vested interests of the ‘sport’ so desire, can be subject to a positive test, whether or not they knowingly doped.
A worldwide unique experiment by the ARD doping editorial team and the Institute of Forensic Medicine at the University Hospital of Cologne proves that even the briefest of touches can make athletes positive.
The researchers administered small amounts of various anabolic substances to 12 test persons via the skin using a carrier substance - by briefly touching the hand, neck or arm. The initial analysis of the samples by the renowned Cologne doping control laboratory revealed, in all 12 test persons, massive suspicion of doping. Traces were detectable in the laboratory up to 15 days after the administration of the extremely low doses of anabolic steroids.
"If the samples had come from athletes, we would have had suspicions that we would have investigated and would very likely have had to make a positive finding in many of the samples taken," said laboratory director Mario Thevis: "Then we would have had an anti-doping rule violation here, which would also have been sanctioned accordingly. The athlete would definitely be punished, possibly for up to four years."
This may be news to you, and I apologize if it comes as a shock, but anabolic steroids are virtually useless for distance runners. I don't think anyone is accusing Hull of being on anabolic steroids...
Tell that to the East German middle distance runners! Steroids work for women at all distances
On the other hand, there was news that came out a few years ago that seemed to have gotten buried, rather than met with the appropriate alarm and rebuttal, possibly because it basically ‘shatters the sport’.
The news was that the test capability is so sensitive, and clandestine drug delivery by insidious means is so easy. The natural conclusion from such news is that absolutely anyone, should the vested interests of the ‘sport’ so desire, can be subject to a positive test, whether or not they knowingly doped.
A worldwide unique experiment by the ARD doping editorial team and the Institute of Forensic Medicine at the University Hospital of Cologne proves that even the briefest of touches can make athletes positive.
The researchers administered small amounts of various anabolic substances to 12 test persons via the skin using a carrier substance - by briefly touching the hand, neck or arm. The initial analysis of the samples by the renowned Cologne doping control laboratory revealed, in all 12 test persons, massive suspicion of doping. Traces were detectable in the laboratory up to 15 days after the administration of the extremely low doses of anabolic steroids.
"If the samples had come from athletes, we would have had suspicions that we would have investigated and would very likely have had to make a positive finding in many of the samples taken," said laboratory director Mario Thevis: "Then we would have had an anti-doping rule violation here, which would also have been sanctioned accordingly. The athlete would definitely be punished, possibly for up to four years."
This may be news to you, and I apologize if it comes as a shock, but anabolic steroids are virtually useless for distance runners. I don't think anyone is accusing Hull of being on anabolic steroids...
That isn't correct. Russian women md runners were using steroids amongst the doping cocktails they were on.
So those of you that insist she is dirty, do you believe that her father injects her drugs himself to get the dosing right? In what reality do you reside where people can even conceive of this..never mind, just answer the first question.
Seriously? Let's see: Ambitious young man who fell short of his Olympic dreams channels all of his ambitions and hopes into the athletic career of his daughter. He starts training her at an early age, and...
I think this one writes itself, Slick.
PS I'm not saying that is what happened here. But anyone who believes an athlete's parents will always keep their kid innocent and pure is being willfully ignorant.
Laura Muir regularly beat Hull in 1500 races before this year. Now Hull is crushing Muir.
Hull has crushed Muir once, when Muir sat off the pace. Before this year's Pre, Muir had beaten Hull for nine races in a row.
That aside, Hull should be beating Muir now. Muir is 31 and on the downswing in her career. That she's still winning DLs at this stage (as she did in Stockholm) is pretty great. Hull is 27 and at her peak (almost all athletes peak at 27 or 28), so this is really her year if she's going to breakthrough and win a medal.
Why should Hull be beating Muir? She’s never been on Muir’s level. If Muir had dropped a level, then fine, it would make sense for Hull to be beating her. But Muir hasn’t dropped a level. On the contrary, she just ran a personal and national record! Yet she finished way behind Hull. Nothing to see here!
Hull has crushed Muir once, when Muir sat off the pace. Before this year's Pre, Muir had beaten Hull for nine races in a row.
That aside, Hull should be beating Muir now. Muir is 31 and on the downswing in her career. That she's still winning DLs at this stage (as she did in Stockholm) is pretty great. Hull is 27 and at her peak (almost all athletes peak at 27 or 28), so this is really her year if she's going to breakthrough and win a medal.
Why should Hull be beating Muir? She’s never been on Muir’s level. If Muir had dropped a level, then fine, it would make sense for Hull to be beating her. But Muir hasn’t dropped a level. On the contrary, she just ran a personal and national record! Yet she finished way behind Hull. Nothing to see here!
Because we can see what is going on. It happens in sport. An athlete crests in performance, then ages out. Hull is the one creating in performance now, and will probably never lose to Muir again.
So Hull graduates and goes to be coached by someone who is continuously and unanimously panned by this message board for years as being a terrible coach who ruins athletes (Pete Julien), and then when she finally leaves him and performs well, she's now doping?
wtf. pick which crazy theory you want to go with but dont just claim every possibility.
It's much more likely Pete wasn't training her right, stifling her progression, and now she's able to get back to the athlete she could/should have been.
She wasn't injured under Julian (one of the few) so she still would have made some progress, and WELL-TRAINED RUNNERS DON'T IMPROVE BY NEARLY 7 SECONDS AFTER 25!!!
Hull has gotten 1-2 seconds faster every year since college except one. That type of incremental improvement is expected. Dropping 7 seconds in one year is absurd. She’s now 18 seconds faster than she was when she won the NCAA title!
My kids' squad has 4-5 going to the OG. Without any question none of them are doping, just no doubt at all. I don't get the assumption that if someone does something good they are doping. For example one person said you have to dope to run under 10 for the 100, but I know a white 100 runner well who is close tot hat, and without any doubt he does NOT dope.
I think there is an element of people assuming others are doping, because they are just so much better, and it makes them feel better.
What is your kids' squad? Like your kids track team has 4-5 people going to the Olympics? What track team is this?
all college kids seem to be able to break 4:00 in the mile
Nico Young just ran sub-13, sub-27, 3:34, and 1:45 in the same season.
HS kids who run sub-9 for 3200 are a dime a dozen.
Three of the fastest 800s of all time were just run in the same race (by randos we have barely heard of)
Jessica Hull can run 3:50, Nikki Hiltz can run 5:55, and Laura Muir just ran a PR in the twilight of her career
Faith Kipyegon doesn't even look tired after her 3:49 WR
Men have run 12:3x in the 5000m and lost the race
Sub-13 is something that pros can just do in a small meet or time trial
Men's marathoning is in 2:01-land and 2:05 is considered "meh" (except in America)
Women's marathoning includes a 2:11 from a runner we didn't really know
the men's 1500m has to be 3:30 flat (or faster) or it is not even considered a good race.
And runners can keep smashing PRs until their 30s and early 40s?
So if we grant that the shoes and training is better, that can't explain everything, can it?
No. So there is some PED (or combo of PEDs) out there. What is weird to me is that all these people from random high schoolers to Faith Kipyegon and Jakob and the Algerians are taking "something" but nobody on this message board has a clue what it is?
How can every coach, collegiate runner, former pro, gym-bro, and obsessed masters runner on this board have ZERO clue what these people are on?
Are we all totally being left out of some loop? How do all these elites know what to take, how to take it, and where to get it, but we don't even know what it is? Man, we are clueless.
So I think what you are saying is that a lot of these people are clean and there isn't a new super drug that everyone is one but no one knows about.
So in the interests of being consistent - this is really "eye opening". Not a direct accusation but the same questions are at play with certain others that have been discussed ad nauseum on the messageboard.
For me my simple question is, how is it possible she has been soooo far off her potential over the last 3-4 seasons, especially as she been exposed to really high level racing with wavelight and of course, modern product? It's that simple?
Okay so she's improved her 3000m - yeah, by almost the same amount as she just did her 1500m time - but this just doesn't add up right now. Put it this way, I don't really see much difference in Mohamed Katir going from 3.36 to 3.28 in a season and it's actually incredibly similar when you then look at the corresponding level that has been attained relative to the WR.
It's even so incredibly similar down to Katir beginning 2021 with a 3.36.59 PR, taking a 3 second bite out of it to 3.33.62 and then the monumental jump to 3.28.76. Hull began this season at 3.57.29, takes a slightly smaller bite out of it at 3.55.97 and then the monumental jump to 3.50.83?
People will point to Hiltz going from 3.59 to 3.55 as some kind of comparison (and others) but really it's not. When you are approaching the limits of your sexes all-time potential (currently sits at 3.49.04) every second gets infinitely tougher.
I just dunno man, not sure what to believe anymore. But all I'll say is that if we were so suspicious over a dark skinned Spanish male of Moroccan descent who did one thing, we have to be equally suspicious over a white blonde Australian female who has basically done the exact same thing, just on the womans side.
I like your posts and generally agree. I, again, have to agree here. The only thing is that I’m a biased Australian. A few other Qs too. The drug testing in Oz is horribly strict, to a very high standard and frequent - you can’t get away with the shenanigans that are routine in so many other countries. Also, import/export of anything at all - even fruit and vegetables - os extremely strict and heavily regulated. Let alone drugs or ‘packets’ of things. Customs open everything and anything that isn’t declared properly or just to spot check. The average pharmacy is terrible too - one needs a doctor’s prescription for anything of use (unlike in many countries where one can get EPO in the average phamacy..laughably impossible in OZ) + even a doctor will be heavily eyeballed if the doctor is prescribing off-label frequently. It’s insanely regulated and ‘big brother’ like in Australia. If she’s on PEDs, how on earth would she get them in Oz? Someone in Ferntree Gully cooking up a storm? It’s not impossible, just close to it in Australia. It’s not the place to go and live in if that’s what she’s doing.
According to an analysis by the Australian Criminal Intelligence Commission of wastewater data, Australians consumed more than 16.5 tons of methamphtamine, cocaine, heroin, and MDMA in 2023.
There has to be something about that track. Isn't it the same track on which Jakob crushed the 2-mile WR? Is this the track that is being used for the Olympics?
If you'd have told me a year ago that Jessica Hull was going to run the equivalent of a 4:07 mile, I'd say your crazy. I always thought she was more a natural 5Ker whose baseline was around 4:19 mile and was making some modest improvement along with the rest of the female milers and would be moving up to the 5K any day now.
It is the 2 mile WR track but it is not the Olympic track
But I'm on your side here - I don't simply believe that all top athletes are cheating and I still want to give the BOTD to her even though the numbers point to this being historically staggering.
I just read all 19 pages of this thread. LOVED the discussion.
This thread shows the best (and worst) of the sport and even LetsRun.
Jess' performance and breakthrough is one of the performances we all dream about or one of the biggest frauds of all time. It is one or the other.
And I'm on the side of Salvitore Stitchmo. I give her the BOTD. You couldn't get a better trip than she did. The shoes have clearly changed the game. Without a perfect rabbit does she ran 3:53-3:54? She'd already run 3:55.9 this year.
Look at the men's race at the US Trials. Are we supposed to believe all those guys were doping?
Having said that of course you don't stick your head in the sand but if you can't appreciate amazing performances what's the point of following the sport?
Georgia Bell PRd by 3.87 seconds in this race and she was in the pack having to navigate that. Cory McGee PRd by 3.2 at Olympic Trials, same thing having to navigate a pack.
Now 5.14 seconds is harder especially when you are getting into 3:50 territory but if you were going to draw it up this is how you would do it. Perfect pacemaking, super fast track, shoes, etc.
But I'm on your side here - I don't simply believe that all top athletes are cheating and I still want to give the BOTD to her even though the numbers point to this being historically staggering.
I just read all 19 pages of this thread. LOVED the discussion.
This thread shows the best (and worst) of the sport and even LetsRun.
Jess' performance and breakthrough is one of the performances we all dream about or one of the biggest frauds of all time. It is one or the other.
And I'm on the side of Salvitore Stitchmo. I give her the BOTD. You couldn't get a better trip than she did. The shoes have clearly changed the game. Without a perfect rabbit does she ran 3:53-3:54? She'd already run 3:55.9 this year.
Look at the men's race at the US Trials. Are we supposed to believe all those guys were doping?
Having said that of course you don't stick your head in the sand but if you can't appreciate amazing performances what's the point of following the sport?
Georgia Bell PRd by 3.87 seconds in this race and she was in the pack having to navigate that. Cory McGee PRd by 3.2 at Olympic Trials, same thing having to navigate a pack.
Now 5.14 seconds is harder especially when you are getting into 3:50 territory but if you were going to draw it up this is how you would do it. Perfect pacemaking, super fast track, shoes, etc.
The problem with this logic is that all other examples (Bell, McGee, Hiltz, Mackay, Ciattei, Green, Wynne, etc. etc. etc.) improved by far less than Jess has this season, or even did in this single race. 2-4 seconds is one thing, but 5 seconds in one race or 7 seconds in one season is an amazing improvement at this level.
Not to mention, they all made those improvements to go from being a good pro to a great one. Jess went from being a great pro to an all-time great. She now sits in rarified air only occupied by known dopers, former NOP athletes (including herself), and a Kenyan competing at the height of Kenyan doping busts. There is questionable evidence that 3:50 is humanly possible for a biological female, much less for one who was nowhere near that level previously. I get the argument to give her the benefit of the doubt, but I just don't know if I can have confidence here.
If we see a glut of sub-3:52 performances over the next few years by athletes with a more trustworthy past than a former NOP athlete who now trains alone, maybe I will be inclined to believe it. But until then, I simply have to doubt.
Wejo Wrote: So I think what you are saying is that a lot of these people are clean and there isn't a new super drug that everyone is one but no one knows about.
I am saying it is one heck of an impressive conspiracy that all these different groups (Algerians, Australians, NCAA, masters marathon runners, high school kids, etc.) are all doping and yet the entirety of Letsrun can't find one whistleblower who helped to facilitate that world-wide doping culture and is willing to talk openly about it.
The teammates and support staff of elite runners are so good at keeping secrets, they should work for the CIA...
This post was edited 5 minutes after it was posted.
So I think what you are saying is that a lot of these people are clean and there isn't a new super drug that everyone is one but no one knows about.
I am also saying it can be both. We can have had 9 areas of improvement (see my bulleted list above) and we can also have doping with newer, undetectable drugs.
All those groups you listed are getting faster across the board because of shoe tech, better training, fast tracks, wave lights, etc.
Those factors cannot explain how Jessica Hull, who has already been able to enjoy the benefits of modern advances for the past several years, suddenly went from an also-ran to running right behind Faith Kipyegon.
