Have you read my post? I show that Jakob ran world class 800m times (relative to hos age) all the way through his teens, including an age WR time. Since his teens he hasn´t raced a serious 800m. DO YOU THINK HE HAS LOST HIS EXCELLENT 800M ABILITY GOING INTO ADULTHOOD?
Caps is making you appear to be obsessed.
If Jakob has amazing speed he clearly hasn't focused on it enough in his training. Can't be close to world class 800 while training to continue winning 5K finals, and expect to break the WR in the 1500 at the same time.
I might be a bit obsessed when it comes to gathering information -video documentation and hard facts regarding different runners´ actual progression - to judge if the narratives promoted on these pages are true. In this case the narrative that Jakob has rather poor speed compared to other top runners.
I must admit that I get trickered by people like you and other negativists who are unable to see the real world through their biases glasses. If you consider this an insult then watch the videos on my above post and come back to comment with some substantial arguments and not some hand wavering ones. If you know the difference.
You don´t get it about about Jakob´s 800m ability. He was world class from 13-16, including having an age WR at 14. He also ran a fast 800m at 19 and since then he hasn´t run a serious 800m.
His 800m results were based LONG DISTANCE training from around the age of 8. This training has been unchanged for about 15 years. He has only upgraded the mileage and the number of training session. I don´t claim that Jakob can be world class in the 800m as a senior. But I think he could have run 1:44 last year when he was in his 2000m WR shape, especially if he had had time to run some races beforehand. And I think he can go sub 1:44 in the 800m within some years if he stays healthy and continue to follow his training regimen.
You are also wrong about not being able to improve the 800m when doing long distance training. I have been writing about it before, also on this thread but here we go:
Apart from Jakob Peter Snell was a prominent example:
When he started with Lydiard at age 19 in 1958 he had just set a 1:54 PB in the 800m. Lydiard told him that - with his great speed - he could be a top 800m runner if he improved his endurance. As you probably know Snell then started doing marathon training with the other "Arthur´s boys" and 2 years later Peter had broken 1:50 and running low 1:49 going into the 1960 OG. Under the OG he set new PB in 3 out of 4 races and came out with a gold medal and a PB of mid 1:46.
Shortly after he started with Lydiard he had also participated in the NZ 10 km X country champs and placed almost last in the 60 men big field. The next year after one more base training period he placed 5th in the same X country race and one or two years later he won. So by doing marathon training he improved BOTH his 800m AND his 10km dramatically over some few years.
I could give you MANY more examples of runners who improved a lot in both the short AND the long distances by in the same time by doing endurance training. But I will only mention one quite actual example: Josh Kerr.
As you possibly know Kerr improved his HM time with almost 2 minutes from late 2022 to late 2023. From early 2023 to early 2024 he further improved his 3000m/ 2 miles substantially. And we are many who think he most likely also can improve his 800m and 1500m significantly this year (barring illness and injury).
I am looking forward to hearing from you when you have watched the videos I have linked to in my post above. It is about Jakob´s finishing speedcompared to the other top milers.
Have you read my post? I show that Jakob ran world class 800m times (relative to hos age) all the way through his teens, including an age WR time. Since his teens he hasn´t raced a serious 800m. DO YOU THINK HE HAS LOST HIS EXCELLENT 800M ABILITY GOING INTO ADULTHOOD?
Caps is making you appear to be obsessed.
If Jakob has amazing speed he clearly hasn't focused on it enough in his training. Can't be close to world class 800 while training to continue winning 5K finals, and expect to break the WR in the 1500 at the same time.
I might be a bit obsessed when it comes to gathering information -video documentation and hard facts regarding different runners´ actual progression - to judge if the narratives promoted on these pages are true. In this case the narrative that Jakob has rather poor speed compared to other top runners.
I must admit that I get trickered by people like you and other negativists who are unable to see the real world through their biases glasses. If you consider this an insult then watch the videos on my above post and come back to comment with some substantial arguments and not some hand wavering ones. If you know the difference.
You don´t get it about about Jakob´s 800m ability. He was world class from 13-16, including having an age WR at 14. He also ran a fast 800m at 19 and since then he hasn´t run a serious 800m.
His 800m results were based LONG DISTANCE training from around the age of 8. This training has been unchanged for about 15 years. He has only upgraded the mileage and the number of training session. I don´t claim that Jakob can be world class in the 800m as a senior. But I think he could have run 1:44 last year when he was in his 2000m WR shape, especially if he had had time to run some races beforehand. And I think he can go sub 1:44 in the 800m within some years if he stays healthy and continue to follow his training regimen.
You are also wrong about not being able to improve the 800m when doing long distance training. I have been writing about it before, also on this thread but here we go:
Apart from Jakob Peter Snell was a prominent example:
When he started with Lydiard at age 19 in 1958 he had just set a 1:54 PB in the 800m. Lydiard told him that - with his great speed - he could be a top 800m runner if he improved his endurance. As you probably know Snell then started doing marathon training with the other "Arthur´s boys" and 2 years later Peter had broken 1:50 and running low 1:49 going into the 1960 OG. Under the OG he set new PB in 3 out of 4 races and came out with a gold medal and a PB of mid 1:46.
Shortly after he started with Lydiard he had also participated in the NZ 10 km X country champs and placed almost last in the 60 men big field. The next year after one more base training period he placed 5th in the same X country race and one or two years later he won. So by doing marathon training he improved BOTH his 800m AND his 10km dramatically over some few years.
I could give you MANY more examples of runners who improved a lot in both the short AND the long distances by in the same time by doing endurance training. But I will only mention one quite actual example: Josh Kerr.
As you possibly know Kerr improved his HM time with almost 2 minutes from late 2022 to late 2023. From early 2023 to early 2024 he further improved his 3000m/ 2 miles substantially. And we are many who think he most likely also can improve his 800m and 1500m significantly this year (barring illness and injury).
I am looking forward to hearing from you when you have watched the videos I have linked to in my post above. It is about Jakob´s finishing speedcompared to the other top milers.
I haven't been keeping up as this discussion has gone wild, but I am on objectiveobserver's side here. Jakob seems to *think* he can't finish as well as the other guys OR he just wants to take some of the unpredictability/randomness out of these races. It seems to be more the latter, though he acknowledges that his sprint abilities (in a 400m race or maybe in 3:55 1500m race even) aren't at some of the other guys'. That being said, there is decidedly not a track record of Jakob being dismantled in sprint finishes. Instead, there is a pattern of Jakob getting beat when he tries to take the lead from very far out in a bid to negate sprint finishes in a championship race. Notably, these aren't in particularly slow races. They are in 3:29 races, where it really seems Jakob is out of gas at the end (poor tactics/energy conservation in Eugene, sickness in Budapest).
In races that test more of speed/finishing/tactical abilities e.g. prelims Jakob actually handles these quite well. Sure some of this is that he is very calm tactically, but also a lot of this is he is aerobically so good that when others are feeling it in a 3:34-3:38 race he is able to get to his 800m speed with ease and sustain it. So there is maybe an extreme case (Rio 1500m final) where Jakob's finishing speed could pose an issue, but it's unclear if in a typical moderate speed race (3:33-3:38) he'd have much trouble at all. This is what separates Jakob somewhat from guys who face this "lacking speed" charge like Katir (pre-ban), McSweyn, Mechaal, or Tefera. There are many more guys in this group. Those guys all have notorious struggles in preliminary heats and also in slower DL/championships races when they occur. If they do a long charge from home they might not win, but they do better. If they let it come down to the last 250m, it's a problem. Jakob doesn't seem to be prone to these issues, but rather the issue of taking a pace early and having to burn off every single competitor.
I don´t think Jakob is underestimating his finishing pace. I think he wants to win in a dominant way as Tim did in Doha. Which I think is a bit stupid. I have ran many champs both national and international as a veteran and - as stated before- I have never been frontrunning, neither in the 800m nor in the 1500m even when I was the best BEFORE I THOUGHT I COULD GAP THE FIELD HOLDING A HIGH PACE ALL THE WAY TO THE FINISH LINE. As we say in my home country about such situations : " We are not giving at the doors". Why should a runner give his competitors the advantage timewise it is to work as their pacemaker (I still don´t understand why Fisher was pacing Kerr at their 2 miles WR attack; Kerr had announced the attack so Fisher could just have let Kerr doing the "hunting").
I am always able to use my first running hero Peter Snell as an example. Also in this case:
Snell was never - despite his superior endurance - frontrunning before about 250-200m out. Then he took off and was able to hold at a very high pace all the way to the finish line.
I hope Jakob will consider the situation and start running more smartly which could be staying in the field to about 700-800m out and then really put the pressure on as El-G did in 2004 (as you also have proposed several times).
It is not easy to find runners who have registered both times in the 200m, the 400m AND the 800m in IAAF but with some imagination I found a few:
Andreas Bube
Who ran 21.68 at age 21. And 46.32 in the 400m and 1:48.48 in the 800m at the same age. Bube later ran 22.22 indoors in the 200m. He ran 48.26 in the 400m at age 26 and his PB in the 800m 1:44.89 at age 25.
Andreas Almgren
Who ran impressive 22.88 at the age of 16. At the same age he ran 48.33 in the 400m and 1:51.99 in the 800m. He never ran an official 200m or 400m again but at age 19 he ran 1:45.65 in the 800m.
Guy Learmonth
Ran 22.99 in the 200m at 18. He ran 48.85 in the 400m and 1:49.23 in the 800m at the same age. Guy never ran the 200m again but ran 48 in the 400m at age 20 (do we dare to estimate that he would have been able to run a 22.55 in the 200m in the same year?) Guy ran his PB in the 800m at age 26 and almost the same at age 31. At age 29 he ran 48.08 in the 400m. Guy has run 1:46.60 indoors this year.
Adam Kszczot
Adam ran 22.37 in the 200m at age 19. In the same year he ran 47 in the 400m and 1:45.72 in the 800m. He never had another official time in the 200m but ran 46.51 in the 400m at age 21 and at the same age his PB in the 800m: 1:43.30. Adam ran 1:43 SB three more times more in his career. Last time at age 26.
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As you can see there are runners who runs 22 in the 200m or faster (Bube) even though their 800m PBs (apart from Adam) seem accessible for Jakob.
And Almgren ran high 22 at the age of 16. Don´t you think he would have been able to run low 22 at the age of 19 ( barring illness and injury; I think he had injury problems!)?
AND do you consider Almgren a faster finisher in the 1500m than Jakob today?
-----------------------
I think that part of our disagreement is based on the fact that you support the majority here who claims that Jakob has inferior finishing speed compared to the other top milers, especially Kerr and Wightman (the latter in his 2022 high season shape).
Whereas I claim that recent races don´t seem to support that majority opinion.
In my next post I will link to some race videos to support my opinion.
Firstly (to your last paragraf): I do not support the majority here who claims that Jakob has inferior finishing speed! Not at all! -I have always thought he has the best finishing speed of all, as long as he has the best pb. Because to me finishing speed in a fast race depends on who has the best sum of 800m speed and strength, and that will always be the guy with best overall 1500m pb / capacity… But a slow tactical race can be something else, f.ex Jakob’s loss to Lewandowski in 2020 Euros indoor.
Secondly: You list a lot of guys with (mostly) high 22 pb, and then their 800m pb’s. But those guys can’t be compared to 1500m guys like Jakob and Coe. Apart from Almgren -he is a interesting athlete, but quite a outlier. -His shift of training regime (to double threshold) after many years with injuries and set back puts him in a special situation (He is running 1500m in Doha against Nordås May 10th K believe -interesting start!) -but what his current all out 200m status is I don’t know at all…
Lastly: Hard to estimate Jakob’s 800/400/200m all out capacity -but in 2020 he clearly was inferior to Lewandowski despite being significantly better in the 1500m (3.28.68 vs 3.33.99).
Keino fluked at high altitude. Never beat Ryun previously. Was beaten at sea level by Vasala. The others you list were just a bunch of dopers. You aren't an observer - just another fan.
Keino's 1500m performance in Mexico was of WR quality. He has not fluked anything but fully deserves this win almost three seconds ahead of the greatest 1500m runner in history at date. Vasala in the 1500m undoubtedly is not in the class of Keino. You don't include Ngeny in your list of greatest 1500m runners since Elliott because of doping but you include El G? So you think El G was clean and Ngeny not? But you have written something different in this forum several times.
I
Keino/altitude = gold. End of story. He never beat Ryun at sea level and got nowhere near his Mexico time at sea level. Highly likely he was blood doped for the race. Vasala showed he was better than Keino over the 1500 but injury cut his career short.
El G was most likely doped, as was Ngeny, but El G was better and held the records. But all the top runners since the 90's at least would have been on something. Jakob included.
I haven't been keeping up as this discussion has gone wild, but I am on objectiveobserver's side here. Jakob seems to *think* he can't finish as well as the other guys OR he just wants to take some of the unpredictability/randomness out of these races. It seems to be more the latter, though he acknowledges that his sprint abilities (in a 400m race or maybe in 3:55 1500m race even) aren't at some of the other guys'. That being said, there is decidedly not a track record of Jakob being dismantled in sprint finishes. Instead, there is a pattern of Jakob getting beat when he tries to take the lead from very far out in a bid to negate sprint finishes in a championship race. Notably, these aren't in particularly slow races. They are in 3:29 races, where it really seems Jakob is out of gas at the end (poor tactics/energy conservation in Eugene, sickness in Budapest).
In races that test more of speed/finishing/tactical abilities e.g. prelims Jakob actually handles these quite well. Sure some of this is that he is very calm tactically, but also a lot of this is he is aerobically so good that when others are feeling it in a 3:34-3:38 race he is able to get to his 800m speed with ease and sustain it. So there is maybe an extreme case (Rio 1500m final) where Jakob's finishing speed could pose an issue, but it's unclear if in a typical moderate speed race (3:33-3:38) he'd have much trouble at all. This is what separates Jakob somewhat from guys who face this "lacking speed" charge like Katir (pre-ban), McSweyn, Mechaal, or Tefera. There are many more guys in this group. Those guys all have notorious struggles in preliminary heats and also in slower DL/championships races when they occur. If they do a long charge from home they might not win, but they do better. If they let it come down to the last 250m, it's a problem. Jakob doesn't seem to be prone to these issues, but rather the issue of taking a pace early and having to burn off every single competitor.
I don´t think Jakob is underestimating his finishing pace. I think he wants to win in a dominant way as Tim did in Doha. Which I think is a bit stupid. I have ran many champs both national and international as a veteran and - as stated before- I have never been frontrunning, neither in the 800m nor in the 1500m even when I was the best BEFORE I THOUGHT I COULD GAP THE FIELD HOLDING A HIGH PACE ALL THE WAY TO THE FINISH LINE. As we say in my home country about such situations : " We are not giving at the doors". Why should a runner give his competitors the advantage timewise it is to work as their pacemaker (I still don´t understand why Fisher was pacing Kerr at their 2 miles WR attack; Kerr had announced the attack so Fisher could just have let Kerr doing the "hunting").
I am always able to use my first running hero Peter Snell as an example. Also in this case:
Snell was never - despite his superior endurance - frontrunning before about 250-200m out. Then he took off and was able to hold at a very high pace all the way to the finish line.
I hope Jakob will consider the situation and start running more smartly which could be staying in the field to about 700-800m out and then really put the pressure on as El-G did in 2004 (as you also have proposed several times).
Jakob could never run like Snell; he doesn't have his kick - or his speed. Snell could run 22 for the 200. Jakob wouldn't get near that - I would bet the house, the car, and the dog he couldn't go below 23. Most likely 23-mid at best.
Keino's 1500m performance in Mexico was of WR quality. He has not fluked anything but fully deserves this win almost three seconds ahead of the greatest 1500m runner in history at date. Vasala in the 1500m undoubtedly is not in the class of Keino. You don't include Ngeny in your list of greatest 1500m runners since Elliott because of doping but you include El G? So you think El G was clean and Ngeny not? But you have written something different in this forum several times.
I
Keino/altitude = gold. End of story. He never beat Ryun at sea level and got nowhere near his Mexico time at sea level. Highly likely he was blood doped for the race. Vasala showed he was better than Keino over the 1500 but injury cut his career short.
El G was most likely doped, as was Ngeny, but El G was better and held the records. But all the top runners since the 90's at least would have been on something. Jakob included.
He didn't include some all-time greats in his list of best 1500m runners since Elliott because he thinks they doped. He includes other runners he also thinks they doped (El G "held the records" - Ngeny 2nd fastes Miler since a quarter of a century and Olympic champion while beating a prime El G)..
This small issue reflects all of his "reasoning" in this forum.
High altitude like 2240m in Mexico City slowes athletes in the 1500m, this is very well known. Keino's 3:34.91 at least is on the same level than Ryun's WR at the time of 3:33.1.
Both Keino and Vasala have set their all-time 1500m PB while winning Olympic Gold.
3:34.91 from Keino in '68 v. 3:36.33 from Vasala four years later. Keino's time is worth around 3 seconds faster. Vasala for sure has not shown to be better over 1500m than Keino who clearly has to be ahead of Vasala in any 1500m ranking.
Come on Curious dude! Why are you so secretive? What did you run in the 800m as a teen and at what age?
Have you ever been competing seriouslyas a veteran runner?
I ran a number of Nordic veteran champs, including 2 in Norway, Brumundal in 2005 and Frederiksstad in 2011 (I think). One of my foremost Nordic competitors was Norwegian Harald Nygård who was a 800m-5000m guy and also ran the 3000sc where I think became world champion one year. Have you heard about Harald?
To your last question: Yes, I have heard about Harald Nygård (he’s a little older than me) -he ran 12.18 in the 3000m last year as a 72 years old! Another fun fact: In January this year Arne Hamarsland (90.5 years old) ran a 64 sec 400m -he was the fourth in the world to break 3.40 in the 1500m (1958)…
When I was in my mid 50s I trained hard for one year -I had discovered the master records, and was delusional enough to think I had a shot… But I was stupid (as always) and trained far too hard and short term -ruined both my knees, and first now a decade later I’m about to recover…
I was really impressed by your times as a master, and your progression. -Wish it was me! And also how you got faster in the 400m -90+ year Hamarsland seem to confirm your narrative. But I still think you are giving Jakob too much speed -I think there’s a reason why Gjert said “my boys isn’t fast”..! (But doesn’t mean that Jakob isn’t being gradually better in the shorter events / capacity..).
My longtime lifestyle provided a way around my knee problems, so I’m much stronger and muscular now than f.ex at 18 years old, but have also good endurance -but no masters experience or ambitions… My lifestyle provides me with even more hours of bodily activity than I think elite athletes spend, so I’m not that discontent…
Yes, I’m secretive -prefer a level of anonymity. But must also admit that I’m a little embarrassed by my pb’s. -Not that elite (that they could have been), and not much to brag about. (Can only brag about some races where I overperformed -not the place for that here). And they reflect the fact that I trained / raced only 2 years as a teenager (before retiring for good) -6 months of this time being injured without alternative training at all. And then injuries injuries (because I was a stupid, un knowledgeable and impatient idiot).
So what I will say about myself is this: I think Jakob is right. -I think talents (contrary to myself) must have a cautious and long term and patience approach to training and racing, and that therefore Jakob (and a lot of other young athletes) will smash some records, and both get stronger but also speeder year after year. The only thing is that I wonder if Jakob could learn something from Nordås about injury prevention…
Keino/altitude = gold. End of story. He never beat Ryun at sea level and got nowhere near his Mexico time at sea level. Highly likely he was blood doped for the race. Vasala showed he was better than Keino over the 1500 but injury cut his career short.
El G was most likely doped, as was Ngeny, but El G was better and held the records. But all the top runners since the 90's at least would have been on something. Jakob included.
He didn't include some all-time greats in his list of best 1500m runners since Elliott because he thinks they doped. He includes other runners he also thinks they doped (El G "held the records" - Ngeny 2nd fastes Miler since a quarter of a century and Olympic champion while beating a prime El G)..
This small issue reflects all of his "reasoning" in this forum.
High altitude like 2240m in Mexico City slowes athletes in the 1500m, this is very well known. Keino's 3:34.91 at least is on the same level than Ryun's WR at the time of 3:33.1.
Both Keino and Vasala have set their all-time 1500m PB while winning Olympic Gold.
3:34.91 from Keino in '68 v. 3:36.33 from Vasala four years later. Keino's time is worth around 3 seconds faster. Vasala for sure has not shown to be better over 1500m than Keino who clearly has to be ahead of Vasala in any 1500m ranking.
All of which nitpicking nonsense has nothing to do with the subject of the thread, which is that Cram says Jakob won't take the wr this year. All I said was I have seen all the greats run for over half a century but we disagree who some of them were. So ******** what.
He didn't include some all-time greats in his list of best 1500m runners since Elliott because he thinks they doped. He includes other runners he also thinks they doped (El G "held the records" - Ngeny 2nd fastes Miler since a quarter of a century and Olympic champion while beating a prime El G)..
This small issue reflects all of his "reasoning" in this forum.
High altitude like 2240m in Mexico City slowes athletes in the 1500m, this is very well known. Keino's 3:34.91 at least is on the same level than Ryun's WR at the time of 3:33.1.
Both Keino and Vasala have set their all-time 1500m PB while winning Olympic Gold.
3:34.91 from Keino in '68 v. 3:36.33 from Vasala four years later. Keino's time is worth around 3 seconds faster. Vasala for sure has not shown to be better over 1500m than Keino who clearly has to be ahead of Vasala in any 1500m ranking.
All of which nitpicking nonsense has nothing to do with the subject of the thread, which is that Cram says Jakob won't take the wr this year. All I said was I have seen all the greats run for over half a century but we disagree who some of them were. So ******** what.
For you, Keino is not one of the greats since Elliott, but Vasala is?
Keino CLEARLY has to be ahead of Vasala in any all-time 1500m ranking.
Two times Commonwealth champion, Gold and Silver (after winning Gold in the Steeple) at the Olympics. 2nd fastest all-time in the 1500m and the Mile. It's not even close.
All of which nitpicking nonsense has nothing to do with the subject of the thread, which is that Cram says Jakob won't take the wr this year. All I said was I have seen all the greats run for over half a century but we disagree who some of them were. So ******** what.
For you, Keino is not one of the greats since Elliott, but Vasala is?
Keino CLEARLY has to be ahead of Vasala in any all-time 1500m ranking.
Two times Commonwealth champion, Gold and Silver (after winning Gold in the Steeple) at the Olympics. 2nd fastest all-time in the 150e0m and the Mile. It's not even close.
So apart from your obsession what have you got to say about the thread subject?
For you, Keino is not one of the greats since Elliott, but Vasala is?
Keino CLEARLY has to be ahead of Vasala in any all-time 1500m ranking.
Two times Commonwealth champion, Gold and Silver (after winning Gold in the Steeple) at the Olympics. 2nd fastest all-time in the 150e0m and the Mile. It's not even close.
So apart from your obsession what have you got to say about the thread subject?
Changing the subject - like always when his nonsense was exposed.
Keino clearly has to be ahead of Vasala, you still disagree? Keino was two years younger than Herb Elliott.
Yes - restrunner does. The subject is Cram saying Jakob won't take the wr's this year, not ****** Keino.
No. rekrunner, whether I agree with him or not, states facts, is an informed poster, and defends his opinions based on facts. You? You change the subject when your ignorance is exposed. You have the IQ of a maggot.
That isn't the subject. Try reading the thread topic.
You have talked about Snell, Vasala, Keino, etc. That isn't the subject. Try reading the thread topic.
I said I have seen the greats in md running over the years, who I was comparing with Ingebrigtsen on the issue of speed. Try reading comments before you spout off.
Yes - restrunner does. The subject is Cram saying Jakob won't take the wr's this year, not ****** Keino.
No. rekrunner, whether I agree with him or not, states facts, is an informed poster, and defends his opinions based on facts. You? You change the subject when your ignorance is exposed. You have the IQ of a maggot.
Sadly, you have just revealed yours. It was "restrunner", not "rekrunner".
Yes - restrunner does. The subject is Cram saying Jakob won't take the wr's this year, not ****** Keino.
No. rekrunner, whether I agree with him or not, states facts, is an informed poster, and defends his opinions based on facts. You? You change the subject when your ignorance is exposed. You have the IQ of a maggot.
Easy mistake, but rekrunner =/= restrunner.
I'm not really following the discussion, but I'm not so sure we have seen Jakob's true 800m ability. I'm also not so sure that Jakob could break the 1500m WR.
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