Somebody asked me for the definition of female (biological sex) versus the definition of a woman (gender identity) that I (and my colleagues) use when treating patients or doing science. The Yale description captures the definitions pretty well and is quick to read. I can’t help that you don’t like them, but btw, these are the accepted definitions now across all academic medical institutions in the USA at least. As in all things human, there is an interplay between biological and social determinants. Again, I’m not understanding why any of this makes you so upset.
Another poster referenced parenting as a good analogy. There is the biological notion of parenting, as in a person who has genetic offspring, and there is the social construct of parenting, as in raising a child regardless of a biological connection. Both are valid, somewhat interrelated concepts that are broadly accepted by society and subject to scientific investigation. Can you be a mother and have only delivered a child, but never raised a child? Yes you can. That child is connected to you irrevocably as your biological offspring. Can you be a mother who has never been pregnant, but raised a child? Yes, you can. That child is irrevocably connected to you too, but not in the biological way of the first child. Can you be female, but not a woman, yes you can. Can you be male and a woman, yes you can.
I'm not upset in an emotional sense. I reject attempts to foreclose research and questioning by people who act as if assertsions are settled knowledge, which is precisely what Yale is doing. Can you tell me what it means to self-represent as a male or female?
What precisely renders a male a woman and a female a man?
I will try to answer your question as best I can based on my lay reading and my personal observations. I am an MD and care for more than a few trans patients and I work with several trans people too, both men and women and also have a non immediate family member who is trans. However, I am NO expert on the topic. However, you asked me my opinion, so I will give it to you. You will probably read this and scoff or say I am a slave to gender ideology, well, I am ok with that. I harbor no malice to women, an in fact I am known a good ally for women in my personal and professional life. I don't have seething anger or live in a basement lacking in love or human connections or whatever else you have accused some others of doing. I am not a troll. As I have said many times, only to face derision, much of what I know on this topic and what has informed my opinions has been taught to me by females, NOT males.
Ok, so I think gender identity is a core part of a person's sense of self that forms at a relatively young age. The sense of self is a real thing, it can be documented and measured and it not delusion or imagination. I am sure you have a strong sense of self, we all do. Anyway, this is a sense of self that is genuine, very deeply held, persistent and fairly immutable. This sense of self/gender identity deeply and profoundly informs how a person behaves, appears, interacts with other individuals and institutions and their general relationship to the outside world. It does not mean that they conform to some sort of stereotypical behavior associated with a given sex or gender. In turn this outward expression of the gender self also has a major impact on how individuals and institutions view and interact with the person. I am not sure of the determinants of this sense of gender identity, but I would not be surprised if there are biological ones, genetic, neural, developmental reasons. In the end, I also am not sure we can really ever know why people have a non conforming gender identity or if it is "real or not", but I am comfortable taking people's word for it and treat them accordingly. I am sure there is good science that could be done to explore all of this and I would oppose efforts to block a better understanding. The problem is that people have come to think that pursuing understanding is a form of assault, and this makes me sad, but that is not too surprising given the nature of a lot of the posts (I am not saying this is true of you.). There has been a complete loss of trust that is for sure.
As for what renders a male a woman or a female a man, it is having this sense of self and therefore navigating the world with this identity all day every day. A trans woman is most definitely not a man who simply cross dresses. A trans person will have many of the same experiences, opportunities, oppressions as a cis person of that gender, but not all of them of course. I do not believe a trans woman can have menstrual cramps or other biological phenomenon that are exclusively related to sex, but in many of the ways that count in society, I believe a trans man or trans woman have many of the same experiences as cis men and women of the same gender identity, and this is enough for them to be considered men or women for me.
I know you will hate my use of this quote, but I am going to use it anyway:
"One is not born, but becomes a woman."
I think the major social pressures/oppressions that led Simone de Beauvoir to utter these words apply to both cis and trans women alike. So I do think the quote is apt. I am not denying that females have unique biological features from males and vice versa, and I do not think that trans women are female or that trans men are male, but I do think they are women and men respectively as it pertains to most of our social structures, workplaces, etc.
Learn to focus and write concisely. One topic in at most a couple paragraphs. Sexism is a silly distraction. You’re being a muddlehead now, like I pointed out before, confusing legal rights with the value of genetic analysis broadly.
Cole has very long hair, he was fixing his necklace and adjusting his singlet. For a second I thought (not that there anything wrong with it), what if Cole was trans. We would have the first woman ever to go sub 3:50 (not only sub 4).
That would really increase interest in women track
I'm not upset in an emotional sense. I reject attempts to foreclose research and questioning by people who act as if assertsions are settled knowledge, which is precisely what Yale is doing. Can you tell me what it means to self-represent as a male or female?
What precisely renders a male a woman and a female a man?
I will try to answer your question as best I can based on my lay reading and my personal observations. I am an MD and care for more than a few trans patients and I work with several trans people too, both men and women and also have a non immediate family member who is trans. However, I am NO expert on the topic. However, you asked me my opinion, so I will give it to you. You will probably read this and scoff or say I am a slave to gender ideology, well, I am ok with that. I harbor no malice to women, an in fact I am known a good ally for women in my personal and professional life. I don't have seething anger or live in a basement lacking in love or human connections or whatever else you have accused some others of doing. I am not a troll. As I have said many times, only to face derision, much of what I know on this topic and what has informed my opinions has been taught to me by females, NOT males.
Ok, so I think gender identity is a core part of a person's sense of self that forms at a relatively young age. The sense of self is a real thing, it can be documented and measured and it not delusion or imagination. I am sure you have a strong sense of self, we all do. Anyway, this is a sense of self that is genuine, very deeply held, persistent and fairly immutable. This sense of self/gender identity deeply and profoundly informs how a person behaves, appears, interacts with other individuals and institutions and their general relationship to the outside world. It does not mean that they conform to some sort of stereotypical behavior associated with a given sex or gender. In turn this outward expression of the gender self also has a major impact on how individuals and institutions view and interact with the person. I am not sure of the determinants of this sense of gender identity, but I would not be surprised if there are biological ones, genetic, neural, developmental reasons. In the end, I also am not sure we can really ever know why people have a non conforming gender identity or if it is "real or not", but I am comfortable taking people's word for it and treat them accordingly. I am sure there is good science that could be done to explore all of this and I would oppose efforts to block a better understanding. The problem is that people have come to think that pursuing understanding is a form of assault, and this makes me sad, but that is not too surprising given the nature of a lot of the posts (I am not saying this is true of you.). There has been a complete loss of trust that is for sure.
As for what renders a male a woman or a female a man, it is having this sense of self and therefore navigating the world with this identity all day every day. A trans woman is most definitely not a man who simply cross dresses. A trans person will have many of the same experiences, opportunities, oppressions as a cis person of that gender, but not all of them of course. I do not believe a trans woman can have menstrual cramps or other biological phenomenon that are exclusively related to sex, but in many of the ways that count in society, I believe a trans man or trans woman have many of the same experiences as cis men and women of the same gender identity, and this is enough for them to be considered men or women for me.
I know you will hate my use of this quote, but I am going to use it anyway:
"One is not born, but becomes a woman."
I think the major social pressures/oppressions that led Simone de Beauvoir to utter these words apply to both cis and trans women alike. So I do think the quote is apt. I am not denying that females have unique biological features from males and vice versa, and I do not think that trans women are female or that trans men are male, but I do think they are women and men respectively as it pertains to most of our social structures, workplaces, etc.
Thank you, your patience and eloquence is admirable.
Who is claiming the East African advantage is unfair? I don't think any serious athletes are claiming that; maybe some guy on a barstool somewhere. You say "we just acknowledge that some athletes have an unfair advantage", can you give some examples, other than transwomen?
A 7’ athlete has an unfair advantage over a 5’5” athlete in basketball.
Swimmers with broader shoulders and linger torsos have unfair advantages over athletes who don’t.
Who is claiming the East African advantage is unfair? I don't think any serious athletes are claiming that; maybe some guy on a barstool somewhere. You say "we just acknowledge that some athletes have an unfair advantage", can you give some examples, other than transwomen?
A 7’ athlete has an unfair advantage over a 5’5” athlete in basketball.
Swimmers with broader shoulders and linger torsos have unfair advantages over athletes who don’t.
Good points, mixing those ranges across men and women would def create wild variance
Who is claiming the East African advantage is unfair? I don't think any serious athletes are claiming that; maybe some guy on a barstool somewhere. You say "we just acknowledge that some athletes have an unfair advantage", can you give some examples, other than transwomen?
A 7’ athlete has an unfair advantage over a 5’5” athlete in basketball.
Swimmers with broader shoulders and linger torsos have unfair advantages over athletes who don’t.
And yet a couple NBA players have been 5' 5" or shorter. No woman has ever or will ever be good enough to make a men's tournament D1 team, at any point in her career -- and even considering that possibility is being generous.
More concretely, someone who had the same advantage over the men's world record in the 10,000m as the WR man has over the WR woman in that event would run 23:37 -- not only breaking the record by over two and a half minutes, but breaking Komen's 3,000m record by around 15 seconds enroute.
It's simply not in the same world as 7' vs. 5'5" in basketball.
I will try to answer your question as best I can based on my lay reading and my personal observations. I am an MD and care for more than a few trans patients and I work with several trans people too, both men and women and also have a non immediate family member who is trans. However, I am NO expert on the topic. However, you asked me my opinion, so I will give it to you. You will probably read this and scoff or say I am a slave to gender ideology, well, I am ok with that. I harbor no malice to women, an in fact I am known a good ally for women in my personal and professional life. I don't have seething anger or live in a basement lacking in love or human connections or whatever else you have accused some others of doing. I am not a troll. As I have said many times, only to face derision, much of what I know on this topic and what has informed my opinions has been taught to me by females, NOT males.
Ok, so I think gender identity is a core part of a person's sense of self that forms at a relatively young age. The sense of self is a real thing, it can be documented and measured and it not delusion or imagination. I am sure you have a strong sense of self, we all do. Anyway, this is a sense of self that is genuine, very deeply held, persistent and fairly immutable. This sense of self/gender identity deeply and profoundly informs how a person behaves, appears, interacts with other individuals and institutions and their general relationship to the outside world. It does not mean that they conform to some sort of stereotypical behavior associated with a given sex or gender. In turn this outward expression of the gender self also has a major impact on how individuals and institutions view and interact with the person. I am not sure of the determinants of this sense of gender identity, but I would not be surprised if there are biological ones, genetic, neural, developmental reasons. In the end, I also am not sure we can really ever know why people have a non conforming gender identity or if it is "real or not", but I am comfortable taking people's word for it and treat them accordingly. I am sure there is good science that could be done to explore all of this and I would oppose efforts to block a better understanding. The problem is that people have come to think that pursuing understanding is a form of assault, and this makes me sad, but that is not too surprising given the nature of a lot of the posts (I am not saying this is true of you.). There has been a complete loss of trust that is for sure.
As for what renders a male a woman or a female a man, it is having this sense of self and therefore navigating the world with this identity all day every day. A trans woman is most definitely not a man who simply cross dresses. A trans person will have many of the same experiences, opportunities, oppressions as a cis person of that gender, but not all of them of course. I do not believe a trans woman can have menstrual cramps or other biological phenomenon that are exclusively related to sex, but in many of the ways that count in society, I believe a trans man or trans woman have many of the same experiences as cis men and women of the same gender identity, and this is enough for them to be considered men or women for me.
I know you will hate my use of this quote, but I am going to use it anyway:
"One is not born, but becomes a woman."
I think the major social pressures/oppressions that led Simone de Beauvoir to utter these words apply to both cis and trans women alike. So I do think the quote is apt. I am not denying that females have unique biological features from males and vice versa, and I do not think that trans women are female or that trans men are male, but I do think they are women and men respectively as it pertains to most of our social structures, workplaces, etc.
Thank you, your patience and eloquence is admirable.
Who is claiming the East African advantage is unfair? I don't think any serious athletes are claiming that; maybe some guy on a barstool somewhere. You say "we just acknowledge that some athletes have an unfair advantage", can you give some examples, other than transwomen?
A 7’ athlete has an unfair advantage over a 5’5” athlete in basketball.
Swimmers with broader shoulders and linger torsos have unfair advantages over athletes who don’t.
This is a great point. We should let adults compete against children now.
Just checking back in on this thread after a few days to see how much it has drifted away from an XY human taking away wins, medals, and opportunities to advance to championship meets away from XX humans in the throws in Connecticut.
And it certainly has drifted.
So, let me just take pleasure in knowing that this issue will be resolved in the next few years by those who make laws (elected officials) and policy (governing bodies) and that common sense and science will win out. This will be an issue of the past.
XY humans will not be competing against XX humans in girls and women's sports. The trends of the laws and policies are clear.
The 2+2=5 crowd will lose.
Sure, humans with rare issues like DSD will have to be accommodated appropriately. And they will be. They will not be ignored or "erased."
But there's really no sense in spending too much time getting frustrated on a discussion board, or trying to convince people who really don't matter much in the grand scheme of things. They likely hold no power.
The people with power are working, perhaps a little too slowly, but working just the same, to clean up this problem.
Who is claiming the East African advantage is unfair? I don't think any serious athletes are claiming that; maybe some guy on a barstool somewhere. You say "we just acknowledge that some athletes have an unfair advantage", can you give some examples, other than transwomen?
A 7’ athlete has an unfair advantage over a 5’5” athlete in basketball.
Swimmers with broader shoulders and linger torsos have unfair advantages over athletes who don’t.
Absolutely 100% wrong. There is nothing unfair about being tall in basketball, because the rules for basketball do not specify a required height. The same for broad shoulders in swimming. What makes an advantage unfair is when it goes against the rules, like a 30 year old racing in the 40+ category, a cyclist using an electric motor, or a man racing in the women's category.
Lia Thomas' former UPenn teammate Paula Scanlan said she was silenced from speaking out against unfair competition, but she is no longer scared to take a stand.
A 7’ athlete has an unfair advantage over a 5’5” athlete in basketball.
Swimmers with broader shoulders and linger torsos have unfair advantages over athletes who don’t.
Absolutely 100% wrong. There is nothing unfair about being tall in basketball, because the rules for basketball do not specify a required height. The same for broad shoulders in swimming. What makes an advantage unfair is when it goes against the rules, like a 30 year old racing in the 40+ category, a cyclist using an electric motor, or a man racing in the women's category.
Great, there are no rules in track preventing a possessor of Y chromosomes from participating in the women’s category, rather quite to the contrary, the rules specify exactly how that is to be done, so nothing unfair there either, right? Aren’t rules rules?
