Hulls permanently-raised eyebrows are worth a couple seconds at least
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TheTortoise wrote:
Clean Sport Advocate wrote:
Laura Muir regularly beat Hull in 1500 races before this year. Now Hull is crushing Muir.
They were basically in two different races. Muir should've stuck with Kipyegon.
Muir had no reason to think she could stick with Kipyegon based on Kipyegon’s dominance. Why did Hull think she could stick with Kipyegon when she never could before? 🤔
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Left Said Fred wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
Yet you exclude doping as a factor, when we know it is present throughout the sport and has long been so and continues to develop. Why? Too disillusioning?
Ma’s women were on every chemical advantage available at the time.
There is no comparison to the scrutiny under which the modern athlete, in the RTP, lives with. If there were some advancement in doping that were responsible for this new era in middle distance performances, I would have heard of it at this point. That’s not to say there won’t be people in Paris who are frauds. I’ve seen a few confirmed, sadly.
I am very sorry you haven’t been afforded an opportunity to get to know any of these athletes we’re discussing here. The very solid majority of them want to stay within the rules and it’s a minority that choose to dance close to the line and a smaller number still that willfully choose to cross it. As I have stated earlier, this excludes those that come from programs that never shed their cheating ways. Aside from doping controls and whereabouts requirements, nothing has cleaned up our sport as much as the wholesale banishment of Russia and Belarus.
They aren't under the scrutiny you say. Antidoping does not have the resources to monitor every top athlete on a continuous basis. They have to either target a suspicious athlete or test at random. The proportion of athletes who confidentially admit to doping as against those caught shows that antidoping is always playing catch-up. David Howman had said doping is always "more sophisticated" than antidoping. The scale of it internationally shows that.
Your comparison with Chinese athletes also completely undermines your arguments that athletes like Hull will be clean. You say the Chinese athletes used every doping aid available and yet they were no faster than Hull. How can a clean athlete match the world record performances of athletes who were doped to the max?
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Left Said Fred wrote:
non sequitur wrote:
First, it is not difficult to beat the testers, and second, we do not know how many tests she missed.
Most importantly, for those who think Hull is clean: what do you figure she'd run dirty? 3:45??
Tell us with your method to evade all your drugs tests.
Athletes don't have to evade tests. Drugs are often masked and don't show up on tests.
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Josh Kerr voted for Brexit wrote:
There has to be something about that track. Isn't it the same track on which Jakob crushed the 2-mile WR? Is this the track that is being used for the Olympics?
If you'd have told me a year ago that Jessica Hull was going to run the equivalent of a 4:07 mile, I'd say your crazy. I always thought she was more a natural 5Ker whose baseline was around 4:19 mile and was making some modest improvement along with the rest of the female milers and would be moving up to the 5K any day now.
I think it’s the track. I don’t know how or why. But let’s see how all these runners fair for the rest of the season on different tracks.
I mean obviously they were all on the same track and Hull wasn’t far off Faith so she’s clearly had a fitness jump. Muir is now peaking at the correct time. But on a different track I think they’d all be a little slower but in the same order.
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ditto
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They're always asking a question wrote:
Hulls permanently-raised eyebrows are worth a couple seconds at least
ditto
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Clean Sport Advocate wrote:
Laura Muir regularly beat Hull in 1500 races before this year. Now Hull is crushing Muir.
Beat once, crushed the 2nd time.
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Clean Sport Advocate wrote:
TheTortoise wrote:
They were basically in two different races. Muir should've stuck with Kipyegon.
Muir had no reason to think she could stick with Kipyegon based on Kipyegon’s dominance. Why did Hull think she could stick with Kipyegon when she never could before? 🤔
Yeah she has. She stayed with Faith for 2.75-3 laps, instead of 2.25.
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Karma Police wrote:
Clean Sport Advocate wrote:
Laura Muir regularly beat Hull in 1500 races before this year. Now Hull is crushing Muir.
Beat once, crushed the 2nd time.
Laura Muir beat Jess Hull in every race since about 2016 until this past 6 months. Quite convincingly- Jess Hull was always 6/7/8 in world champs. Laura usually contends the medals.
Did anyone see Laura’s post race interview? She knew it wouldn’t work for her to go with Faith. She ran her own race (as she does) she got a PB and a National record. Yet the interviewer didn’t mention this, just kept asking what it was like to race with Faith when she was so far ahead every race!
Anyway, she seemed happy and a bit teary. To run a PB and a NR when there are rumours you are past your best is impressive. She tends to peak at the right time and has us worried early season.The truth is, you can’t be in PB shape all season. You need to time this for the Olympics. I’m wondering if some athletes have peaked too early?
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Clean Sport Advocate wrote:
Laura Muir regularly beat Hull in 1500 races before this year. Now Hull is crushing Muir.
Hull has crushed Muir once, when Muir sat off the pace. Before this year's Pre, Muir had beaten Hull for nine races in a row.
That aside, Hull should be beating Muir now. Muir is 31 and on the downswing in her career. That she's still winning DLs at this stage (as she did in Stockholm) is pretty great. Hull is 27 and at her peak (almost all athletes peak at 27 or 28), so this is really her year if she's going to breakthrough and win a medal.
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High hopes wrote:
Clean Sport Advocate wrote:
Laura Muir regularly beat Hull in 1500 races before this year. Now Hull is crushing Muir.
Hull has crushed Muir once, when Muir sat off the pace. Before this year's Pre, Muir had beaten Hull for nine races in a row.
That aside, Hull should be beating Muir now. Muir is 31 and on the downswing in her career. That she's still winning DLs at this stage (as she did in Stockholm) is pretty great. Hull is 27 and at her peak (almost all athletes peak at 27 or 28), so this is really her year if she's going to breakthrough and win a medal.
How dare you let facts get in the way of an allegation...
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Muir is aiming to peak in Paris.
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Karma Police wrote:
Clean Sport Advocate wrote:
Muir had no reason to think she could stick with Kipyegon based on Kipyegon’s dominance. Why did Hull think she could stick with Kipyegon when she never could before? 🤔
Yeah she has. She stayed with Faith for 2.75-3 laps, instead of 2.25.
Muir had no reason to think, "[insert crap statement, pretend to be an expert, click 'post', hope no one responds]"
This is what Muir thinks: “It’s that balance to know how far you can push it and not go too hard, too soon,” she says. “I’m definitely still not the master of it – it’s [about] being mentally strong enough to keep pushing.”
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Nice try, Slick wrote:
yes you get it wrote:
Well reasoned out. Muir, with more confidence, should have gone with it as well. ESP would hopefully have gone with it and she too would have been rewarded. It isn't rocket science that people who take a risk, may benefit - with the right mindset...Too many don't take risks and so run to mediocrity...What is surprising (and shouldn't be) is Hull going after it - so instead of automatically throwing down the doping card, maybe appreciate that this IS possible and hope our women can develop the same go-for-broke mindset.
Suppose you are right, and it's all a matter of attitude. Can you explain why Hull suddenly developed the right attitude?
While you are at it, maybe you could explain why we shouldn't laugh when you say that Muir lacks confidence. Anyone who's watched her career knows that lack of confidence is not one of Muir's problems. If anything, her record has suffered from an excess of confidence, as she's gone out too fast and crashed.
Re-read this, something of a revelation to Muir, but certainly not an athletic lightbulb moment:
Muir’s ability to suffer, to dig deep, then deeper, is a product of both nature and nurture. She was always good at it. Just never quite this good.
“Until you go to that place, you don’t know,” she says.
That place is the limit, the moment you can hear the body’s distress calls, its cries to slow down, but choose not to listen.
“I don’t think I’d really experienced that until I started to be coached by Andy [Young],” says Muir. “He taught me you can run harder and faster. Your body is giving out and saying, ‘no, no,’ but you can. It’s a fine balance and I have gone too hard too soon in races and died, but you don’t know until you try. The more you try it, the more your body gets used to it, adapts, and you become physiologically stronger.”41 -
interesting graph wrote:
"The shoes" existed when she ran PBs of 3:59 in 2022, and 3:57 in 2023.
She wore the spikes at the world championships in 2019.
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buried head in sand wrote:
gads wrote:
If you think it’s hard to stay undetected go watch Icarus again.
On the other hand, there was news that came out a few years ago that seemed to have gotten buried, rather than met with the appropriate alarm and rebuttal, possibly because it basically ‘shatters the sport’.
The news was that the test capability is so sensitive, and clandestine drug delivery by insidious means is so easy. The natural conclusion from such news is that absolutely anyone, should the vested interests of the ‘sport’ so desire, can be subject to a positive test, whether or not they knowingly doped.
A worldwide unique experiment by the ARD doping editorial team and the Institute of Forensic Medicine at the University Hospital of Cologne proves that even the briefest of touches can make athletes positive.
The researchers administered small amounts of various anabolic substances to 12 test persons via the skin using a carrier substance - by briefly touching the hand, neck or arm. The initial analysis of the samples by the renowned Cologne doping control laboratory revealed, in all 12 test persons, massive suspicion of doping. Traces were detectable in the laboratory up to 15 days after the administration of the extremely low doses of anabolic steroids.
"If the samples had come from athletes, we would have had suspicions that we would have investigated and would very likely have had to make a positive finding in many of the samples taken," said laboratory director Mario Thevis: "Then we would have had an anti-doping rule violation here, which would also have been sanctioned accordingly. The athlete would definitely be punished, possibly for up to four years."
This may be news to you, and I apologize if it comes as a shock, but anabolic steroids are virtually useless for distance runners. I don't think anyone is accusing Hull of being on anabolic steroids...
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So Hull graduates and goes to be coached by someone who is continuously and unanimously panned by this message board for years as being a terrible coach who ruins athletes (Pete Julien), and then when she finally leaves him and performs well, she's now doping?
wtf. pick which crazy theory you want to go with but dont just claim every possibility.
It's much more likely Pete wasn't training her right, stifling her progression, and now she's able to get back to the athlete she could/should have been.175 -
BrainCelll wrote:
So Hull graduates and goes to be coached by someone who is continuously and unanimously panned by this message board for years as being a terrible coach who ruins athletes (Pete Julien), and then when she finally leaves him and performs well, she's now doping?
wtf. pick which crazy theory you want to go with but dont just claim every possibility.
It's much more likely Pete wasn't training her right, stifling her progression, and now she's able to get back to the athlete she could/should have been.
She wasn't injured under Julian (one of the few) so she still would have made some progress, and WELL-TRAINED RUNNERS DON'T IMPROVE BY NEARLY 7 SECONDS AFTER 25!!!
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Yeah, um, I was a health educator and coach, and lots of “looks clean” assessments have resulted in wrong assessments.
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