Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

I’m building back after some time off. Similar to a few others in this thread, I have a pretty solid background from running in the NCAA but now, having graduated a few years ago, don’t have the time and flexibility to train. I have a meter and have been measuring lactate. I can do 4 x mile at 5:30 off 90s and stay below threshold. I can do 6 x mile off 90s a bit slower and achieve a similar lactate. A big part of the discrepancy at the moment is that I’m not very fit yet due to the time off. That 5th mile at 5:30 spikes me too high. But doing 6 x mile a bit slower, I typically test pretty low until the last rep, where I see a bit of a spike. Eventually, as my ability to clear lactate improves, I expect to see smaller spikes in lactate with the increases in volume. Would it be better to stay at that 4 miles worth of work range at a faster pace or keep it at 6 miles and work the pace down gradually over time?

This question's been asked quite a bit in this long thread.

I think the general advice has been that the volume of your sessions should be dictated by your overall training volume. In this system, your time at sub-threshold should be between 20% and 25% of your weekly mileage. If you're running ~7 hours a week that's around 90 minutes of sub-threshold. Three sessions each with ~6 miles of volume would achieve this. If you're running less then shortening the sessions to fewer reps would be appropriate.

Your pace during these sessions should be dictated by whatever keeps you in the right lactate zone. This can be achieved by looking at any one of a number of metrics (HR, pace and lactate testing are the popular ones). So if you're choosing lactate as your metric then yes you'll have to run a little faster to get the same lactate reading as your threshold increases, but your goal would be to hit the lactate measurement rather than to increase your pace.

You can manipulate the pace by extending the recovery in between reps as well.

For example, in the Bakken paper, he demonstrates one athlete's training (almost certainly Jakob), who could run 20-25 x 400m @ 64 seconds, with a recovery of 30 seconds. When the recovery was extended to 60 seconds, the athlete could average 62s. Both produced the same lactate levels at the end (just slightly below LT2).

Therefore, you could keep the same volume in your workouts, but extend the recoveries to keep the intensity in the threshold range.

Personally, I'd drop the volume just slightly at first (maybe down to 5 miles), and then gradually lift - just to be on the conservative side.

sirpoc already said on Strava group he doesn't use and has moved away from this method. You guys really just stabbing on in dark.

Thank you for this. I guess the training was unsustain in end, just like any? Progress was OK but nothing impress anyway. Interesting while lasted though.

Imagine having zero understanding of irony and also not having two seconds to figure out that spoc ran his usual sessions this week.

yeah, about that...

Until 50m to go in that 1500 race, I was about to switch to the British method. Adding more beer to my week, Saturdays off and fish and chips five nights a week. I'd also prepared with a copy of Seb Coe's training diaries next to the toilet for morning reading.

But then something extraordinary happened and I now realise the American method is best. So I'll switch to that. I've just bought Daniel's 73rd edition and will start pounding out threshold runs and hill sprints over the next 12 weeks. I'll be taking inspiration from the college system of course as well. To get into the spirit Hard2find has kindly sent me one of his spare red M.A.G.A hats to keep the sun out of my eyes on my runs and Shirtboy is going to provide me with my own personal handgun for protection whilst out running. If you are going to do the American Method, you must cover all bases and become American.

Of course, when the next Incredible international performance comes, I'll jump on that bandwagon. As we all expect the Great swede to probably break the 20 mins barrier in the over 65 world masters next year, I expect I'll just jump onto the magic DANCAN system. Maybe lexel will run something amazing and the next thing you know, I'll be running CS/CV three times a week!

I'm training for a sub-ultra trail race and I've been experimenting with uphill treadmill intervals as the second workout of the day with standard threshold workouts in the morning. Noticing I can get squeeze out more volume (in terms of time) with uphill treadmill compared to the standard 400's or something. It feels a lot better on the legs the next day too.

Pin this post to the top. :)

Hey gang, thanks for all the thought and detail that you've put into this thread! I am interested in experimenting with double-T but don't know how it'd fit with my schedule as a grad student (classes, TAing, clinical work). I can probably do 2x session on Fridays and *maybe* one other weekday. Before I read all 166 pages, would be super grateful to hear from others in school or with busy schedules how and when you get in the training (early mornings, evenings, etc) - appreciate it!

If there's any question about how the McClain camp feels currently, there are some folks named Tonn liking the comments questioning Fiona on her post. Rightfully so

Edit: no idea how this ended up in this thread, Brojos please fix mobile functionality, absolutely atrocious

You wake up early and just do it after classes. I did it previously when working as a full time educator. Started with 2 x 10 minutes then 6 x 3 minutes. Worked up to 3 x 10 minutes and then roughly the same or 20 minutes of work in the afternoon including warmup and cooldown.

if you follow lower mileage like a majority of this thread than I imagine you can fit in 45 minute double sessions before and after class and clinicals. But if being a future doctor leaves you with such little time (family sibling is in med school atm so I understand the crunch you have to work with) than a double T approach might not be realistic.

find a time that works for you and try that schedule with how this training works. If it drains you too much because of time commitment try it again at a later stage in life.

You are absolutely in the wrong place if you think this thread is a about double threshold. It's astounding how many people still think it is.

haha... I haven't checked in on this thread for a few weeks, just been creeping' in the strava group. Anyway, what sirpoc didn't specify is the M.A.G.A hat I sent him is Medalists Are Going American!

I wasn't going to post this here, as I shared it in the strava group and another thread specifically on the topic, but thought WTH, maybe there are people who read this that are interested and not in the strava group. Anyway...

I carried out a 6 week experiment this summer, testing lactate in the heat and humidity. I’ll link the full document, which includes graphs, and just provide a brief summary here.

Avg Temperature = 79.3 F / 26.3 C

Avg Humidity = 96%

Avg Weight Loss = 5.1 lbs / 2.3 kg

Every data point in the sample is from a 6 x 1600m session, performed outdoors, at the same location and same morning start time. I started the block with a 6 x1600m lactate test. From that data, I defined my speed at LT (vLT) and my heart rate at LT (LTHR).

In my specific case, I could be as high as 110% of LTHR while running at a speed less than vLT and reading lactate around 1.5-2.5 mmol/l. Where as, if I was in that same heart rate range as a result of running faster than vLT, my lactate varied from about 2.0 to 5.0 mmol/l.

The takeaway, using heart rate as a proxy for lactate would be very inconsistent in the heat and humidity, in my situation.

Hopefully the document provides some interesting data for those curious about this.

docs.google.com

Lactate and Heart Rate in the Heat and Humidity

Lactate Testing This was a 6 week data collection project to observe the relationship between lactate and heart rate, when training in a hot and humid environment. I performed an outdoor lactate step test, before starting the...

Link:docs.google.com/document/d/1dPm4smu8PJ...

Thank you sir. You are a hero of thread. In my country I suffer with such issues so your information is very valuable to understand.

The thing I appreciate most about this method is the ability to keep my legs consistently feeling fresh while logging more miles; been 5 months with 0 rest days. I lift upper body every day as well and legs 3 times a week and have yet to have a running session where I felt drained.