Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

Going to chime in here as a silver lining...I had a very similar experience, several months of subT then did a terrible 10k (1.5 mins slower than my prior PB). Felt like I was stuck at threshold and just had absolutely nothing above that, given the volume of training and subT work I was so confident it'd go well, I was gutted.

The good news: I then did a month of conventional training and speed work and took 15s off my 5k PB. Whilst I performed embarrassingly badly off the subT work, I think it gave me the aerobic base to build on when I piled on some intensity. In future I plan to cycle between base phase (easy+speed), SubT, and then a conventional block.

I think if you race every 3 weeks like SP and have a similar morphology to him you can get away with it. This however isn't possible for me and I tend to have a few target races across a year.

Good point, although if you're doing marathon training could you sandwich that 5k TT on the same day as an EZ run? Of course you're just using the 5k as a fitness check.

This shift will take time, it took me well over 2 months to get a breakthrough time that really showed the benefits of this. So I think that is part of it.

If you are looking to race mostly 5ks I think it would benefit to have some shorter distance repeats at faster distances. You are getting enough mileage but your fastest workout (7x1k) is at 7 minute pace. That's still slower than your current 5k pace that you aren't happy with. So it doesn't seem like that much of a surprise that you have trouble maintaining a faster pace when you never train at that faster pace for any distance.

If you want to keep 2 repeats a week, then I would remove the 3x2k and replace it with 20x400m or 12x600m workout with 30 sec rest at your perceived 5k pace. Or a workout similar.

Or just add that workout to your existing for 3 total and alternate days from easy 6 and your repeats/long run. I know it shifts all your workouts every week to a different day but that's what I do as it allows me to get 3 repeat workouts in and a long run in an 8 day timeframe without any of them ever being back to back.

What pace is your 6 miles at? According to this training plan they should be slow, probably around 9min pace for your current 5k time. Same with your 10 miler.

Interesting. I looked up the temp and humidity yesterday morning and that calculator puts that TT effort at an adjusted 19:20, which I would have been plenty happy about. I feel like that's pretty ambitious and obviously calculators are not race results, but maybe there's been a bit more progress than I showed yesterday.

I think the Norwegian approach is still the way to go for base, but if you don't race frequently, you gotta do some old-skool stuff for peaking. Otherwise you won't have the pain tolerance necessary to run hard (and fast).. Even Jakob does something different in-season.

I actually laughed out loud when I read this. I say this not to be an a**hole, but to emphasize how you have nothing to worry about. First I thought it was a typo and you meant a 4 degree differential. Then I read more closely.

Racing at 36 degrees and 82 degrees is a massively different experience. For me, and most runners, 35-45 degrees for a TT or race is when the body is at its absolute optimal. Anything over 65 F and the effects start to become substantial. It is to the point where, as I do this mainly for times and PRs, I don’t even bother racing if it is over 70.

As many have pointed out, a lot of runners will perform poorly after just Sub T or even LT work. It is akin to how most collegiate runners perform in their first XC race after a summer of just easy miles. Once you sharpen up for a few weeks those times will drop massively, though your most recent TT is already miles ahead of your February one when considering the temperature.

ngl, even sub-T workouts feel hard at times. The current DEW POINT is 27C here where I live. I have a race 4 weeks out, I still don't know what time I should shoot for with this weather.

I think I'd mostly like to do 10ks and maybe a 5k/HM thrown in every now and then.
I don't see anywhere in the plan summaries where reps faster than a 10k pace are thrown in regardless of the target race length. This is my first attempt at hard effort in several months.
If anything, threshold pace at my last TT vdot is 7:12, so based on my paces and HRs I'm doing the work on the 1k and 2k reps in the subT range.
Pace for easy work is indeed 9-10 minute miles, HR is normally ~128 with no drift which is less than 70% max except when it's stupid hot and humid out (which it has been lately).
I'm fine to change up the workouts but probably not the days. Sounds like folks are saying that I shouldn't be too discouraged by yesterday's effort given the racing rust and the heat/humidity.

Well that does make me feel a little less terrible. Unfortunately, even the lows here won't hit 65 for probably a month and half and the humidity doesn't leave until late September.
I guess can put a 5k on the books for every few weekends to try and tune up a bit (I don't think I'd want to TT anything longer until the weather cools, a 10k would be miserable based on yesterday and that was a cool morning compared the previous 3 weeks). Maybe try to just not worry about the times until October.

Lmao I'm sure the calculation's a little ambitious, especially with no-speed cobwebs in your legs, but the difference between mild February and dew points in the 70s-80s is truly nuts.

I do really, really appreciate seeing somebody post disappointing progress after giving the method a legit shot. Even if the progress actually shouldn't be that disappointing, all things considered. Makes me feel a little more comfortable than when the only people posting are happy with their results.

5k is the longest TT I’ll do solo in any weather, anything longer would be flat out miserable all by yourself. I think a 3k/2 mile gets you most/almost all of the way there in terms of “remembering how to hurt” while being a bit more tolerable than a 5k when it’s hot and humid

tinman 2003:

"I am certain that a routine of slow 100 miles per week with no fast
running will not train a person to race as well as a 60 miles per week
with stamina zone training (75-85% of Max VO2) included of 20% by
volume."

No, I am not tinman. It boils down my 40 years of experience why I am sucking: low stamina = low threshold. However, in my fifities I am reaching only 10 to 15% of stamina/LT zone training anymore without reducing mileage (currently 50 mpw). Happy to run anyway...

cc tinman 2003:

"I typically refer to the stamina zone as the maximum pace you can hold for a 1 to 3 hour race."

wise, John Whelan 2024:

My own experience with training hard and running fast has tended to show
that simple works better most of the time and any deep dive into the
weeds ultimately just points back to pretty basic stuff we already know
we should be doing. It's disappointing that so much of the information
out there tries to push recreational runners towards increasing (and imo
counterproductive) complexity. The trick is figuring out the right
execution of "simple" and I appreciate this thread because it formalizes
simplicity in a way thats actually practical for the average person.

3-5% weekly volume element X.

15% weekly volume sub T.

Add strides and sprints on easy days.

Keep easy days easy or very easy.

Sirpoc 2024 for hobby 5k-HM:
E, Sub T, E, Sub T, E, Sub T, LR
My recommendation for hobby middle distance:
E, sub T, E, Sub T, E, X, E or easy LR; add strides and sprints to E

With regards to faster paces,

Is the answer not to do short reps at higher speed ?

16-20x400m 100m float @ 5k goal pace

Is a tempo workout, but gives you that race pace.