If protection from the vaccine is so much better than protection from a prior infection, then why are there about ten times the number of breakthrough infections (1276) in a nearby county than reinfections (133) even though the rate of vaccination is about equal (52%)? How is it that people who were infected with SARS-CoV-1 seventeen years ago still have antibodies?
joedirtball wrote:
If protection from the vaccine is so much better than protection from a prior infection, then why are there about ten times the number of breakthrough infections (1276) in a nearby county than reinfections (133) even though the rate of vaccination is about equal (52%)? How is it that people who were infected with SARS-CoV-1 seventeen years ago still have antibodies?
People who were vaccinated in December 2020 "still have antibodies." That's pretty much meaningless without neutralization information. For the record, I expect memory cells from infection to be durable! They just won't be better than vaccination in the long run. That's what the latest data is suggesting.
And yes, I totally acknowledge that on the year-2 years time scale you're going to get better circulating abs from infection (usually). Your dashboard data is not very usual information when we have actual studies looking at this. I full recognize that infected people are going to have good immunity. Pretending it will be much better past the short term is unsubstantiated and promulgating this is harmful to vaccination efforts.
The data shows that everyone should get the vax. There shouldn't be exceptions for prior infected.
Harambe wrote:
BidenFixedCovid wrote:
Biden Fixed Covid - Harambe March 2021.
Can you imagine this by the way ^^^. Look at how absolutely incompetent Biden is, in general. Harambe said this 80 year old man, who hasn't really accomplished anything in a 50 year political career, clearly in cognitive decline (keep in mind he started off near the bottom of his class) fixed Covid 60 days into office.
It's hilarious that Biden, a decrepit 80 year old did who is half senile could roll out vaccines to all of America in a few months -- effectively fixing COVID. Trump couldn't!
It's not Biden's fault that people literally decided to die to own the libs. You got us there! Literally going to the grave to prevent Biden getting credit for ending COVID. I, uh, respect the loyalty to one's political party?
Harambe, doubling down on his insanity. I won't waste my time dismantling the idiocy of your argument, it's so self evident. If you really wanted to encourage people to get vaccinated, you should have someone review your posts before you say some of the really stupid things you do. You've lost all credibility.
Let's not forget that the vaccine does stimulated better immunity than prior infection in many studies:
https://twitter.com/profshanecrotty/status/1449030846711681025?s=20
Antibodies wane. Those from infection may wane slower. Obsessing about a narrow window of waned vs. not waned is pointless beyond a few months. We should care about durable protection. Things seem roughly equal with a small edge to vaccination due to seemingly enhanced protection against variants.
Bullet_Proof wrote:
Yes. Way too much. You didn't sufficiently convince me that getting a vaccine will allow us to get back to normal. You have not defined what that number is. 100% of the US population? 98%? What about kids? You going to force my 2 year old to get the jab? You really are a hitler apologist.
Until you define what success looks like, then you are simply another loud sheep.
The solutions I proposed can be mandated. We wouldn't be asking/expecting. We would be mandating.
We both want a solution to covid, but we disagree on how to get there. Are you not open to compromise?
All of the solutions I proposed - combined - could achieve the desired result.
But you are sticking to the force-it-down-everyone's-throat position. Dont sugar coat it. You want to use force to tell people what they have to put into their bodies.
And yes, I will keep sticking to the comorbidities because that accurately reflects reality. If those people did not have severe hypertension, highblood pressure, cancer, and they only got covid, they would still be alive.
If 90% of the 16+ population was fully vaxxed, we wouldn't have COVID-Zero but it'd be a very minute part of our lives. I don't obsess about kids like others, but I think having them tested weekly would be smart.
Refresher in recent history:
May, 1999: FDA approves Vioxx.
September, 2004: Vioxx pulled from the market by Merck.
A dangerous drug legally sold in the US for 5 years, 4 months.
2600 bro wrote:
Your statistics are based on epidemiology and assessing who is infected/sick/dying and vax/recovered status.
This paper Harambe posted is trying to predict future outcomes by immunophentyping and assessing the myriad responses from vax/viral challenge.
It shows some of the previous assumptions are wrong! Memory B cell reactivity is still getting stronger and more highly cross reactive for vaccinated people but not previously infected, implying better long term protection from severe disease in vaxxed! It seems a lot of the “natural immunity” benefit is more durable and diverse circulating antibodies but that doesn’t translate into a better memory B/T cell response.
Lastly it shows that vaccination after infection produces a better response in ALL metrics.
These data are compelling. I assume the Wherry lab will continue to follow up with long term immunology. Very interesting.
The "pandemic of the recovered but unvaccinated" could be a thing in 2 years.
DanM wrote:
Refresher in recent history:
May, 1999: FDA approves Vioxx.
September, 2004: Vioxx pulled from the market by Merck.
A dangerous drug legally sold in the US for 5 years, 4 months.
Oof. Considerably more nuance involved on that one. I was tangentially involved in some of the litigation, and in one of the studies that prompted withdrawal the placebo group's risk for CV events plateaued over time, while that of Vioxx users rose until the difference between the two was statistically significant.
...The problem being that a control group's CV risks should *always* increase over time--the only question is the rate at which they do so. (A group's risk of heart attack during a three-year span should be greater than its risk during just two years.) This was a strangely anomalous result for the Vioxx control group.
In any case, not at all cut and dried. Wiki actually has a pretty good summary of the situation, including the drug's possible/likely return to market:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RofecoxibWhile we're at it: Thalidomide famously was not approved in the U.S. around 1960. Less well known is that it *was* approved at the end of the century.
Bullet_Proof wrote:
Yes. Way too much. You didn't sufficiently convince me that getting a vaccine will allow us to get back to normal. You have not defined what that number is. 100% of the US population? 98%? What about kids? You going to force my 2 year old to get the jab? You really are a hitler apologist.
Until you define what success looks like, then you are simply another loud sheep.
The solutions I proposed can be mandated. We wouldn't be asking/expecting. We would be mandating.
We both want a solution to covid, but we disagree on how to get there. Are you not open to compromise?
All of the solutions I proposed - combined - could achieve the desired result.
But you are sticking to the force-it-down-everyone's-throat position. Dont sugar coat it. You want to use force to tell people what they have to put into their bodies.
And yes, I will keep sticking to the comorbidities because that accurately reflects reality. If those people did not have severe hypertension, highblood pressure, cancer, and they only got covid, they would still be alive.
Once again, I'm not that personally supportive of mandates and haven't been waving the flag for them here or anywhere. I do, however, agree with society's need to protect itself and if we the people can't do it, then the government and other institutions have to step up. I think the vaccine is safe, effective and the best solution for society at large. You seem to agree, but don't want to be pinned on that. You want to preserve your concept of liberty and individualism and pretend that your cohort wouldn't CONTINUE to cry foul and storm the gates over the mAnDaTeS you're proposing for solutions.
In implicating me for cheering on unvaxxed deaths and calling me a Hitler apologist you seem to overlook that you're glossing over hundreds of thousands of unnecessary deaths, because to you: those people weren't healthy enough. Impressively obtuse. You're also truly caught up in the psychopolitical myth that this is some larger scheme and end game of dystopian rule in modern society. Yikes dad.
I don't disagree with the overwhelming weight of comorbidities and poor health contributing to deaths, but again: if covid wasn't in existence 99+% those mothers/fathers/sons/daughters/parents/friends wouldn't have died that day. And as you slip slide down the blame hole of health, what then do you say to the tens of thousands "healthy" people who died? What do you say to the thousands/millions of unhealthy people who SURVIVED covid??? But, hey, keep pivoting away from the data by blaming ancillary causes [ie what you paint as someone's supposedly indelible personal decisions/freedoms/way of living ]- it's not like that hasn't been batted around here before.
I'll keep this up because I know you're not a troll - you're just someone who needs to reorient their outlook on society at large and their role in it as an individual.
These vaccines are the first products in history to blame those who don't use it for their failure.
Harambe wrote:
joedirtball wrote:
If protection from the vaccine is so much better than protection from a prior infection, then why are there about ten times the number of breakthrough infections (1276) in a nearby county than reinfections (133) even though the rate of vaccination is about equal (52%)? How is it that people who were infected with SARS-CoV-1 seventeen years ago still have antibodies?
People who were vaccinated in December 2020 "still have antibodies." That's pretty much meaningless without neutralization information. For the record, I expect memory cells from infection to be durable! They just won't be better than vaccination in the long run. That's what the latest data is suggesting.
And yes, I totally acknowledge that on the year-2 years time scale you're going to get better circulating abs from infection (usually). Your dashboard data is not very usual information when we have actual studies looking at this. I full recognize that infected people are going to have good immunity. Pretending it will be much better past the short term is unsubstantiated and promulgating this is harmful to vaccination efforts.
The data shows that everyone should get the vax. There shouldn't be exceptions for prior infected.
There should be when previously infected are subject to higher incidence of adverse events, including strokes with no significant additional benefit. If you really feel that boosters that provide little benefit should be mandated, then why not mandate boosters for measles, mumps, and every other infectious disease. Why limit it to COVID?
joed|rtball wrote:
If you really feel that boosters that provide little benefit should be mandated, then why not mandate boosters for measles, mumps, and every other infectious disease. Why limit it to COVID?
Not sure what your point is since there are boosters for MMR and about 90% of americans born in the last decade are getting vaccinated.
But let's follow your hard-hitting posit, since it compares so strongly to the THOUSANDS OF DAILY COVID DEATHS:
Measles sees a few hundred cases, nationally, a year. The last death was in 2015.
Mumps sees a couple hundred to a few thousand cases, nationally, a year. Though we were down to <0.1 cases/100,000 population around 2000. Very low death rate.
But here are the other vaccines with recommended/required boosters:
Hepatitis A
Hepatitis B
Haemophilus influenzae type B (Hib)
Measles-mumps-rubella (MMR)
Tetanus, diphtheria, and pertussis (Tdap)
Varicella
Adult:
Tdap (every 10 years)
Shingles
Pneumonia
I think I'll go get vaccinated before my next race. Anyone see any harm in that?
joed|rtball wrote:
If you really feel that boosters that provide little benefit should be mandated, then why not mandate boosters for measles, mumps, and every other infectious disease. Why limit it to COVID?
Many vaccines are 3+ dose schedules. There's nothing special about 2 doses, especially in a pandemic when we are figuring out the immunological parameters as we go.
I see no evidence for significantly worse adverse events in prior infected after vaccination. There are studies that have looked at this. The boost to immunity is worth the tox. profiles seen so far.
Holy SH-T PANDEMIC OF THE UNVACCINATED CONFIRMED.
CDC DATA FINALLY RELEASED ON VACCINE STATUS IN CASES, HOSPITALIZATION, AND DEATHS
https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#rates-by-vaccine-status
The numbers are now irrefutable. 3000 posts (I'm very proud) and the post title still rings true.
Harambe wrote:
Holy SH-T PANDEMIC OF THE UNVACCINATED CONFIRMED.
CDC DATA FINALLY RELEASED ON VACCINE STATUS IN CASES, HOSPITALIZATION, AND DEATHS
https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#rates-by-vaccine-statusThe numbers are now irrefutable. 3000 posts (I'm very proud) and the post title still rings true.
Maybe you can list this big accomplishment on your next job application? I'm sure they'll be very impressed.
vaccinatedspermguzzler wrote:
https://www.jpost.com/health-and-wellness/health-ministry-to-consider-asking-newly-vaccinated-to-avoid-working-out-681317I think I'll go get vaccinated before my next race. Anyone see any harm in that?
Lol. Good luck. Vaccinated dropping like flies in Taiwan, who were early in the process. Something for the vaccinated to get anxious about.
vaccinatedspermguzzler wrote:
Maybe you can list this big accomplishment on your next job application? I'm sure they'll be very impressed.
It's always so invigorating to check in on this thread and see the triggered cretins, stooping to ad hominem attacks when they are faced with irrefutable evidence.
Pandemic Of The Unvaccinated: Confirmed!
Disco Gary the Biggest Loser wrote:
vaccinatedspermguzzler wrote:
Maybe you can list this big accomplishment on your next job application? I'm sure they'll be very impressed.
It's always so invigorating to check in on this thread and see the triggered cretins, stooping to ad hominem attacks when they are faced with irrefutable evidence.
Pandemic Of The Unvaccinated: Confirmed!
It's always invigorating to see you use a different name to reply for one of your other names.
When I look for healthcare advice on the internet I always put my trust in someone with multiple personality disorder.
Harambe wrote:
Omg big new paper. Vaccines give similar memory B cell response to infection + vaccination “hybrid immunity.”
The only benefit to infection driven immunity is slightly higher circulating antibody levels for a few months after infection. In the long run… it’s equal.
“Natural immunity” again proves to be a raw deal compared to, uh, not getting COVID.
https://twitter.com/rishirajgoel/status/1448711974938763266?s=21This is pretty big. If the only benefit to infection driven immunity is a few months of breakthru protection, it makes dosing everyone extremely important.
Also infection ALONE generated WEAKER responses than vaccines, especially against variants.
https://twitter.com/rishirajgoel/status/1448711990520676352?s=21All these recovered people who think they’d don’t need to vax could be HIGH and DRY should a new variant come around.
There is simply no reason to avoid the vax. It’s becoming clearer by the day.
Harambe, that's great. How about posting the actual published paper rather than a twitter pic? From this it does not look like a very large study.
WHAT THE F*CK DID I JUST SEE?!?!?!?! KENNY MF ROOKS!! What Guts! @33-1 Odds!
Kenny says, “ Never seen favoritism like this on a global scale.”
Breaking: Noah Lyles isn't coming through mixed zone - he's going to medical
Hocker said his life will change forever from this Gold, will this make him a millionaire?
Cole Hocker says in post-race interview that "God carried his body across the line"
Quincy Hall comes from NOWHERE to win gold - 43.40. Take that Brits.
Olympics Aug 7 Evening Session Live Thread + Live Reactions at 7pm ET