A very simple question

Also we need to remember that if someone is tested say 8 times per year, a lot by track and field standards. That means once every 45 days. So as soon as the door shuts and authorities leave with a "clean" sample the athlete can quickly sauce up for several weeks before cutting the glow from their system (which quite possibly can be addressed by drinking heaps of water) to wait out their next random test, or just ignore the door bell. Kiprop thought that he was tested only to be tricked.

The Biological Passport can give a good picture about the assumptions of EPO. When there are clear fluctuations in the levels of Hb, Hct, Retycolocytes and Off Score, it's clear that the athlete took EPO, so it's a good instrument for catching cheaters.

I completely endorse the procedure, and agree that athletes with evident fluctuations MUST be banned, because global cheaters, looking for having advantage from any situation, and without any ethic value.

But.... this doesn't mean that ALWAYS blood manipulation can produce improvement in the performances.

The chain of improvement is very clear :

1- Athletes fear not to be able to train very hard, or to recover after very hard training

2- For that mental limit, they don't try right volume and intensity, compared with the needs for achieving top performances.

3- Somebody convinces them to take EPO, for working more and for recovering

4- With doping, they make a jump of volume and quality in training

5- The jump of quality produces better results.

The basis of the theory of blood doping is in the point n. 2 : ATHLETES DON'T IMPROVE BECAUSE THEIR TRAINING IS NOT CONNECTED WITH THE LEVEL OF PERFORMANCES THEY WANT TO REACH , and this happens because they refuse the idea that can be possible to train in that way without the external support of doping.

But the DIRECT connection with the improvement is ONLY the increase of training, and they start to increase it after taking EPO only, because before they were prisoners of their mental limits. Under that point of view, we can speak about "placebo effect", not on the performance, but for giving the convinction that is possible to train harder and faster.

This means that athletes already able to accept the idea to train with right volume and right intensity, in clean way, can achieve the same results, BECAUSE THE TRAINING IS THE REASON OF THE IMPROVEMENT, while EPO is the reason for training when athletes don't have at the beginning the mental strength and convinction for training in the right way, without external supports.

One of the external supports that can change the mental strength is their coach : a coach with very good methodological knowledge and with ethic principles, who is also an EDUCATOR for the athletes, is able to bring the athletes themselves at very hard level of training and intensity, and the results can be at the top (not depending on partuculars in training, the training phylosophy matters, not the small differences) in clean way.

Instead, when the coach doesn't have real knowledge and believes in shortcuts, or when the athlete trains alone, without coach (and among African runners this is a very common situation), the athlete look at doping in order to reach the same level of training that, before, made him worry.

At the end, I can say that we have proves EPO can enhance blood values, not that higher blood values (that are individual) can produce better results, and all the experiments made with athletes with small talent and little training can't be transported to the situation of the best in the World.

Renato Canova wrote:

"..... and all the experiments made with athletes with small talent and little training can't be transported to the situation of the best in the World."

That still remains just a qualified guess.

Renato, you miss an obvious point. You have two athletes who are committed to training in the manner you suggest. I accept as you say that they are thereby able to maximize their physical potential. But each wants to beat the other. Being talented and highly-trained may not be enough to win. What is to stop either of them from doping to try to get the edge on their competitor? These are very highly-trained motivated athletes - or they wouldn't train so hard. Add to that, how would a clean athlete feel if he/she believed they were being beaten by a doper - when the only answer they believe may be to dope themselves? I doubt that they would accept your reassurances that "doping doesn't work". And there we see why it exists.

Armstronglivs wrote:

Renato, you miss an obvious point. You have two athletes who are committed to training in the manner you suggest. I accept as you say that they are thereby able to maximize their physical potential. But each wants to beat the other. Being talented and highly-trained may not be enough to win. What is to stop either of them from doping to try to get the edge on their competitor? These are very highly-trained motivated athletes - or they wouldn't train so hard. Add to that, how would a clean athlete feel if he/she believed they were being beaten by a doper - when the only answer they believe may be to dope themselves? I doubt that they would accept your reassurances that "doping doesn't work". And there we see why it exists.

You are using an imaginary hypothetical to "see why it exists".

It looks to me like self-projection of your own bad faith.

You are aware that altitude-trained athletes also dope?

I'm aware that altitude-trained athletes SOMETIMES also dope. This doesn'tr change my position, that with proper training doping with EPO is useless.

So, if some athlete thinks to have advantage, your argument works ; but, if they DON'T BELIEVE THERE IS ANY ADVANTAGE, your argument is useless, because built on a base (the belief in the improvement for EPO) that these athletes don't have.

Jakob will never get to taste victory over Manangoi. You were proven right Canova.

Canova nailed it. The majority of these busts have nothing to do with EPO. The majority are whereabouts failures, which does not implicate doping.

Sapel wrote:

Canova nailed it. The majority of these busts have nothing to do with EPO. The majority are whereabouts failures, which does not implicate doping.

Avoiding drug tests is not indicative of doping?

Sapel wrote:

Canova nailed it. The majority of these busts have nothing to do with EPO. The majority are whereabouts failures, which does not implicate doping.

Okay...then what's the purpose of having whereabouts failures as a banned offense in the first place? If you say it has nothing to do with doping and in no way, shape or form would an athlete avoid being available for his/her testing window because they are glowing, then why the ban athlete at all?

If some of you doping apologists here say that missing drug controls has nothing to do with doping then why not just completely do away with the whereabouts violations? If the athletes are not where they're suppose to be for their testing window and the drug testers can't find them, then why don't they just forget about it and not mark it down as a "missed test," and hope to get lucky the next time. In fact, why not just do away with OOC testing unless the athlete actually agrees to an OOC test and be present at a pre-arranged location for the test.

It would seem futile to continue with the whereabouts provision when so many here now insist that a whereabouts failure charge doesn't at all suggest that an athlete was intentionally avoiding the tests because they were doping.

We certainly wouldn't want to cast any aspersions on an athlete who is banned for a whereabouts failure. Lol.

rekrunner wrote:

extend the philosophy wrote:

Drug testing was introduced in 1965 for god reasons. Are you Disputing this?

The reason for so many products being banned now is that they are believed to be performance enhancing. The reasons given for that belief are not necessarily good science. Generally, most posters here actually believe that EPO allow the body to produce a higher maximal oxygen uptake, which is actually biologically impossible in a healthy person, regardless of training.

Maybe in cycling it was 1965 for "good" reasons.

Here is a similar timeline from the IAAF:

IAAF ANTI-DOPING FACT SHEET

IAAF historically a pioneering international sport federation:

1928 The IAAF becomes the First International Sport Federation to prohibit doping

1968 First international doping controls at Olympic Games

1969 First in-competition tests (ICT) conducted

It’s the only good reason now, in any sport. What we have is a situation where almost everyone believes that drugs can allow the body to deliver superhuman energy output. This widespread ignorance needs to be addressed.

Renato Canova wrote:

I'm aware that altitude-trained athletes SOMETIMES also dope. This doesn'tr change my position, that with proper training doping with EPO is useless.

So, if some athlete thinks to have advantage, your argument works ; but, if they DON'T BELIEVE THERE IS ANY ADVANTAGE, your argument is useless, because built on a base (the belief in the improvement for EPO) that these athletes don't have.

The fact that your argument is that PEDs, which has ruined lives, reputations, had medals stripped, millions upon millions in dollars invested into making the best new drug, and beat tests, are all just a placebo is quite comical.

In some case doped athletes want to avoid the test, but in several other cases NOT doped athletes are not aware of their must, if professional athletes.

Put in your mind that life is very much different between Kenya and US or Europe. While can be easy to control athletes when are in training camp, the mentality of many among best Kenyans ias no longer professional when they are at home, and their life depends, meny times, on situations out of their control.

In my opinion, there is difference between Coleman, not at home in a big town because in the supermarket during the hour of whereabouts, and somebody who never filled personally his whereabouts (in almost all the cases of whereabouts failures with Kenyans, are their managements filling the form) and is not able to put in his mind that you must be professional ALWAYS, not only while you run.

AK, and specifically Barnabas Korir, are trying to educate the athletes, but too many times they are not really interested to understand and to learn. For example, AK provides each athlete with bundles of 500 Ksh each lesson, lasting one hour, that are done weekly. AIU nominates athletes to take part, but only 50% went to participate, and only 1% asked some question.

So, the reason is not "Doping", but "Ignorance". The idea of many Kenyans (not only athletes) living in the rural areas that they can do what they feel to do at the moment (for example, disappearing without informing anybody for going to the village for meeting their children, something not planned but decided 10 minutes before), is connected with the type of life Kenyans had for thousands years, when the idea of personal freedom was at the base of the individual behavior.

Generally, Africans are not still able to follow the rules of international bodies, if don't allow them to do what they want, because there is not yet a full integration in the global World.

But I'm sure that 90% of the cases are not for hiding something, but only for superficiality, ignorance and, sometimes, arrogance (I'm one of the local heroes, so I can do what I want).

This doesn't change the fact they have to be banned, if not able to show the reason af the missed test, and AK is very clear to explain rules and sanctions.

For that reason, it's absolutely absurd and not correct to ask the ban for the Country, that at the moment is the most active against doping, in both the efforts for educating and preventing, and for catching cheaters and superficial athletes not following the rules.

hispy wrote:

Renato Canova wrote:

I'm aware that altitude-trained athletes SOMETIMES also dope. This doesn'tr change my position, that with proper training doping with EPO is useless.

So, if some athlete thinks to have advantage, your argument works ; but, if they DON'T BELIEVE THERE IS ANY ADVANTAGE, your argument is useless, because built on a base (the belief in the improvement for EPO) that these athletes don't have.

The fact that your argument is that PEDs, which has ruined lives, reputations, had medals stripped, millions upon millions in dollars invested into making the best new drug, and beat tests, are all just a placebo is quite comical.

What you fail to realise is that the human body is a thermodynamic system. So with reference to real actual science, not the PED concept which is pseudoscience, where do you think that the ‘enhancement’ from any drug is supposed to come from? Give me an answer that recognises Thermodynamics?

Renato Canova wrote:

Put in your mind that life is very much different between Kenya and US or Europe. While can be easy to control athletes when are in training camp, the mentality of many among best Kenyans ias no longer professional when they are at home, and their life depends, meny times, on situations out of their control.

In my opinion, there is difference between Coleman, not at home in a big town because in the supermarket during the hour of whereabouts, and somebody who never filled personally his whereabouts (in almost all the cases of whereabouts failures with Kenyans, are their managements filling the form) and is not able to put in his mind that you must be professional ALWAYS, not only while you run.

I hate the 'Kenyans never cheat, they're just stupid' excuse.

I think you're fighting a losing battle once your defence of the dopers is that they're idiots and can't fill out simple forms on their own.

Renato Canova wrote:

I'm aware that altitude-trained athletes SOMETIMES also dope. This doesn'tr change my position, that with proper training doping with EPO is useless.

So, if some athlete thinks to have advantage, your argument works ; but, if they DON'T BELIEVE THERE IS ANY ADVANTAGE, your argument is useless, because built on a base (the belief in the improvement for EPO) that these athletes don't have.

Renato, that is also your belief. Not a proven fact. You haven't been able to test it.

I don't buy that Kenyan athletes are too dumb to know what they are doing.

The real problem rarely gets addressed. That no one should be taking stuff that they think will make then faster or stronger based on pseudoscience. If you don’t believe me, then just ask yourself where is the supramaximal ATP supposed to come from? Sorry if that question went completely over your head but someone’s gotta ask.