Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

sirpoc84 wrote:

data-nerd wrote:

Glad I happened to visit LRC when this thread first popped up and have been following since.

I've been reading more and more lately emphasising the importance of LT-pace training, and taking serious interest in the Bakken/Ingebrigtsen approach. This discussion has generated some great lightbulb moments for me.

The talk of CTL, heart rate zones, maximising time at LT pace etc. has got me wanting to properly monitor changes in my own performance and fatigue metrics. Has anyone got any tips for how to get the most out of tools like Runalyze for this? I think it was sirpoc early on that mentioned he uses it.

Hi data nerd, your username suggests you have come to the correct thread 😂. I think there's quite a few people here who can help with different things, but I can definitely help with this.

I don't use runalyze, but I hugely recommend either Golden Cheetah for the PC version or use intervals icu for mobile (it's browser based, but works fantastic in mobile brave on my android).

This IMO will open things up to what is happening in your training. You'll start to see patterns and understand why you stagnate or when it's time to just do things like I suggested, like time to add on 5 mins here and there to easy runs before you add more reps. Intervals will also give you a visualisation and breakdown each week of your time in zone breakdown. This is hugely valuable. You can customise that breakdown in a number of ways.

I would suggest using time in zone, pace as the main metric, with heart rate as back up and also if you have a reliable and more modern watch, select in the pace settings in intervals icu , gradient adjusted pace.

You can use HR, I don't think it matters too much, you will see slightly different numbers. For me, it evens out (roughly) But the TSS per session seems slightly less for me in the easy runs by HR and slightly more in the workout sessions, than by pace. Overall, I mentioned the other day I have re evaluated the last few hundred runs and basically it ended up the same. Just stick to one though. Once you have picked , just stay with it.

Obviously pace isn't as good as a power meter in cycling, which is the ultimate tool , but I can still use the PMC (it's under the fitness tab in intervals, but the same thing) to index my current fitness) roughly to my training load. The main takeaway in basic terms for me, I could only make it to maybe around a CTL (FITNESS score in intervals icu) of 50, training a more traditional running approach, on around 6.5-7 hours a week. It was only as I started to train like this for the same hours, which made my CTL increase, for no more hours. So obviously I could experiment with how to push the envelope and understand why I have gotten faster.

You mention fatigue, FWIW, the fatigue/tsb score in general I've found quite accurate over the years. I once was cycling and really felt terrible from a training block, had a TSB of like -50. Over the years in cycling it gave me a pretty good idea of where I was at. I could train hard still on about -15 to -20 ish. So for me it was a good metric to use, as again I could index that score and use it for patterns over time. It was as good as telling me when I needed a break as my body. My issue was always I didn't want to believe my body, I was weak and could just push through. The numbers reigned me in. One more thing, training like this for running, you don't need to worry about this too much. I've never accumulated a fatigue score over -10, in intervals icu. That's primarily because this is so controlled, it's basically the same thing every week or at worst ramp it up a tiny bit. Cycling is a bit more variable, you might do some crazy 7 hours ride , it feels easy, but actually that load is huge under the hood and has trashed you in retrospect, more than your body initially tells you. You'd probably find this to be the case in running. That I could easy go out and run 75% of MHR for my long run, it might feel OK as an individual run in isolation, but actually if that becomes the easy standard over time, it will then grind you down (not horrifically I guess) but more than you realise.

Just make sure you are 100% sure you know your threshold pace to begin with and that you know your LTHR. Also, keep those updated the second you clearly know you have improved, through a face or time trial or whatever you benchmarks are likely to be.

Right, I was going to also post and bore everyone with what happened yesterday , as I got my wallet, bought some more lactate strips . Can't believe how expensive they have gotten 😭😂😂.

sirpoc84 wrote:

unbelief wrote:

What was the damage for the strips? and where’d you get them from? Assuming you got Lactate Pro?

£42 for a box of 25 HaB a UK based website. It's not mine, but I have easy access to a friends Lactate 2 pro who works in a science department in education. Long term the cost just isn't viable me to always continue to test, but I just made a really big leap in performance this weekend that I want to test the new paces I've estimated in proportion to my 10k time, that I'm still in the right ballpark. I wasn't going to, but I figured I'm invested in this thread as well myself at this point that I would cough up for another box and test on first , middle and last reps of 10x1k, 6x1600m ( did this distance yesterday) and 5x2k. Maybe run this through twice in the next couple of weeks and do one lot in 25x400 and test that. That'll be this box of strips done. Then if I'm happy just stick to the pace ranges for a while with confidence. Obviously it won't be perfect, some days these paces might do say 2.5 mmol and some days 3mmol and I won't know exactly which one it is (just to use a random example)- maybe not that precise for a pro. But good enough for me that I'm within 98% confidence I'm somewhere under LT2 and in the desired range to keep pushing that threshold from below , which ultimately I believe will keep me progressing.

coach js is dumb wrote:

M-A-G-I-C ! wrote:

If someone( I guess most runners here) can`t afford lactate measuring equipment like this it`s very easy to outgo from Daniels VDOT and find correct threshold pace to outgo from. Then there is just a need to calibrate `exact`individual best threshold pace out from that pace with the help from time of rest needed between the threshold interval reps . As a good example running e.g 8-15 x 1000m at perfect threshold pace shouldn`t need more than 60 sec rest. If need for more rest the pace is too fast.

-The Magic Coach of LRC-

You clearly haven't read the thread VDOT will not help. Threshold is a state, not a pace. Spoc clearly has shown he is running threshold state, but the pace is different depending on the length of the rep and the short rest. Why don't you actually open your mind up and contribute based on you could learn something new, like the rest of us?

I understand what you are saying. Maybe you could work with spoc over time and see as his paces increase relative to his training and pbs, the % of CV is staying the same. As he's not specifically picking a % of it to run, he's just doing whatever gets him, to just below lactate state. It would be interesting to see how those two things come together. It would or could be a good guide rather than just saying "15k pace". As realistically most are not going to be ever using a lactate meter. This is a wonderful thread though. And spoc and others than you so much for sharing your experiences. It's very nice to see ideas coming across from other sports and working.

Thread:www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?th...

sirpoc84 wrote:

data-nerd wrote:

Glad I happened to visit LRC when this thread first popped up and have been following since.

I've been reading more and more lately emphasising the importance of LT-pace training, and taking serious interest in the Bakken/Ingebrigtsen approach. This discussion has generated some great lightbulb moments for me.

The talk of CTL, heart rate zones, maximising time at LT pace etc. has got me wanting to properly monitor changes in my own performance and fatigue metrics. Has anyone got any tips for how to get the most out of tools like Runalyze for this? I think it was sirpoc early on that mentioned he uses it.

Hi data nerd, your username suggests you have come to the correct thread 😂. I think there's quite a few people here who can help with different things, but I can definitely help with this.

I don't use runalyze, but I hugely recommend either Golden Cheetah for the PC version or use intervals icu for mobile (it's browser based, but works fantastic in mobile brave on my android).

This IMO will open things up to what is happening in your training. You'll start to see patterns and understand why you stagnate or when it's time to just do things like I suggested, like time to add on 5 mins here and there to easy runs before you add more reps. Intervals will also give you a visualisation and breakdown each week of your time in zone breakdown. This is hugely valuable. You can customise that breakdown in a number of ways.

I would suggest using time in zone, pace as the main metric, with heart rate as back up and also if you have a reliable and more modern watch, select in the pace settings in intervals icu , gradient adjusted pace.

You can use HR, I don't think it matters too much, you will see slightly different numbers. For me, it evens out (roughly) But the TSS per session seems slightly less for me in the easy runs by HR and slightly more in the workout sessions, than by pace. Overall, I mentioned the other day I have re evaluated the last few hundred runs and basically it ended up the same. Just stick to one though. Once you have picked , just stay with it.

Obviously pace isn't as good as a power meter in cycling, which is the ultimate tool , but I can still use the PMC (it's under the fitness tab in intervals, but the same thing) to index my current fitness) roughly to my training load. The main takeaway in basic terms for me, I could only make it to maybe around a CTL (FITNESS score in intervals icu) of 50, training a more traditional running approach, on around 6.5-7 hours a week. It was only as I started to train like this for the same hours, which made my CTL increase, for no more hours. So obviously I could experiment with how to push the envelope and understand why I have gotten faster.

You mention fatigue, FWIW, the fatigue/tsb score in general I've found quite accurate over the years. I once was cycling and really felt terrible from a training block, had a TSB of like -50. Over the years in cycling it gave me a pretty good idea of where I was at. I could train hard still on about -15 to -20 ish. So for me it was a good metric to use, as again I could index that score and use it for patterns over time. It was as good as telling me when I needed a break as my body. My issue was always I didn't want to believe my body, I was weak and could just push through. The numbers reigned me in. One more thing, training like this for running, you don't need to worry about this too much. I've never accumulated a fatigue score over -10, in intervals icu. That's primarily because this is so controlled, it's basically the same thing every week or at worst ramp it up a tiny bit. Cycling is a bit more variable, you might do some crazy 7 hours ride , it feels easy, but actually that load is huge under the hood and has trashed you in retrospect, more than your body initially tells you. You'd probably find this to be the case in running. That I could easy go out and run 75% of MHR for my long run, it might feel OK as an individual run in isolation, but actually if that becomes the easy standard over time, it will then grind you down (not horrifically I guess) but more than you realise.

Just make sure you are 100% sure you know your threshold pace to begin with and that you know your LTHR. Also, keep those updated the second you clearly know you have improved, through a face or time trial or whatever you benchmarks are likely to be.

Right, I was going to also post and bore everyone with what happened yesterday , as I got my wallet, bought some more lactate strips . Can't believe how expensive they have gotten 😭😂😂.

sirpoc84 wrote:

data-nerd wrote:

Glad I happened to visit LRC when this thread first popped up and have been following since.

I've been reading more and more lately emphasising the importance of LT-pace training, and taking serious interest in the Bakken/Ingebrigtsen approach. This discussion has generated some great lightbulb moments for me.

The talk of CTL, heart rate zones, maximising time at LT pace etc. has got me wanting to properly monitor changes in my own performance and fatigue metrics. Has anyone got any tips for how to get the most out of tools like Runalyze for this? I think it was sirpoc early on that mentioned he uses it.

Hi data nerd, your username suggests you have come to the correct thread 😂. I think there's quite a few people here who can help with different things, but I can definitely help with this.

I don't use runalyze, but I hugely recommend either Golden Cheetah for the PC version or use intervals icu for mobile (it's browser based, but works fantastic in mobile brave on my android).

This IMO will open things up to what is happening in your training. You'll start to see patterns and understand why you stagnate or when it's time to just do things like I suggested, like time to add on 5 mins here and there to easy runs before you add more reps. Intervals will also give you a visualisation and breakdown each week of your time in zone breakdown. This is hugely valuable. You can customise that breakdown in a number of ways.

I would suggest using time in zone, pace as the main metric, with heart rate as back up and also if you have a reliable and more modern watch, select in the pace settings in intervals icu , gradient adjusted pace.

You can use HR, I don't think it matters too much, you will see slightly different numbers. For me, it evens out (roughly) But the TSS per session seems slightly less for me in the easy runs by HR and slightly more in the workout sessions, than by pace. Overall, I mentioned the other day I have re evaluated the last few hundred runs and basically it ended up the same. Just stick to one though. Once you have picked , just stay with it.

Obviously pace isn't as good as a power meter in cycling, which is the ultimate tool , but I can still use the PMC (it's under the fitness tab in intervals, but the same thing) to index my current fitness) roughly to my training load. The main takeaway in basic terms for me, I could only make it to maybe around a CTL (FITNESS score in intervals icu) of 50, training a more traditional running approach, on around 6.5-7 hours a week. It was only as I started to train like this for the same hours, which made my CTL increase, for no more hours. So obviously I could experiment with how to push the envelope and understand why I have gotten faster.

You mention fatigue, FWIW, the fatigue/tsb score in general I've found quite accurate over the years. I once was cycling and really felt terrible from a training block, had a TSB of like -50. Over the years in cycling it gave me a pretty good idea of where I was at. I could train hard still on about -15 to -20 ish. So for me it was a good metric to use, as again I could index that score and use it for patterns over time. It was as good as telling me when I needed a break as my body. My issue was always I didn't want to believe my body, I was weak and could just push through. The numbers reigned me in. One more thing, training like this for running, you don't need to worry about this too much. I've never accumulated a fatigue score over -10, in intervals icu. That's primarily because this is so controlled, it's basically the same thing every week or at worst ramp it up a tiny bit. Cycling is a bit more variable, you might do some crazy 7 hours ride , it feels easy, but actually that load is huge under the hood and has trashed you in retrospect, more than your body initially tells you. You'd probably find this to be the case in running. That I could easy go out and run 75% of MHR for my long run, it might feel OK as an individual run in isolation, but actually if that becomes the easy standard over time, it will then grind you down (not horrifically I guess) but more than you realise.

Just make sure you are 100% sure you know your threshold pace to begin with and that you know your LTHR. Also, keep those updated the second you clearly know you have improved, through a face or time trial or whatever you benchmarks are likely to be.

Right, I was going to also post and bore everyone with what happened yesterday , as I got my wallet, bought some more lactate strips . Can't believe how expensive they have gotten 😭😂😂.