The emperor has no clothes: Jemima Sumgong has tested positive for EPO!!!

Omnivore wrote:

That he can do all that apparent lying wearing a nike jacket everywhere is even more remarkable. Case dismissed.

It's part of his show / cover. Got to have a major name sponsor to pull in the fresh meat.

Dont drag Rodgers into this dope discussion. He was clean and a freak of nature (I say that is a respectful way). Very tiny structure, narrow hips, great work ethic, able to tolerate high mileage without getting injured.

Ran a lot of races per year and 2:09 is still to this day an awesome time, I mean 4:55 pace is no joke for 26m.

I'm no longer eating her maple syrup and all of you should do the same.

I was in Keringet (200 km from Iten) for the last workout of Geoffrey Kirui running Boston, and received a call from my assistant coach in Iten informing about the positivity of Jemima. Since in Keringet there is no internet, I could read the comments only now (20 minutes past midnight).

I understand the reactions, but also I read a lot of stupidities, and I want to clarify my position :

1) Renato Canova doesn't hide himself, but simply had something more important to do, during the day, than to answer some emotional, and many times stupid, post

2) The fact Jemima took EPO doesn't change my clear opinion about the fact EPO doesn't work with the top Kenyans and Ethiopians working in altitude, at the higher intensity of training.

3) Jemima is, of sure, one of the best marathon runners, but winning Olympics doesn't mean you are the best. Surely, the Korean Hwan winning in 1992, or Thugwane winning in 1996, were not among the best runners of the world. Jemima Sumgong is the specialist n. 27 all-time, with a PB of 2:20:48, that represents the 50th performance all-time, something absolutely normal for the best women. Maybe she was already in doping when won in Rio, but I want to remember that the two best Kenyans (Mary Keitany and Florence Kiplagat) were not selected by AK, and that some of the best Ethiopians (like Asefelech Mergia) were injured.

4) I repeat again what is obvious from my experience : EPO can be a shortcut for reaching a personal level of 90% of the max aerobic efficiency, but the move from 90% to 100% of the best performance is ONLY possible with tough, smart and proper training. In other words, EPO can work with ALL KENYANS AND ETHIOPIANS who have not proper training as volume and as intensity, AND IN ANY CASE DON'T ALLOW THESE ATHLETES TO REACH THE SAME RESULT THEY CAN REACH WITH PROPER TRAINING. So, for my experience, when a top athlete has proper training, EPO CAN'T ADD ANYTHING TO HIS SHAPE, and this is the reason because the WR are clean.

5) Different is the situation with athletes born and living at sea level, with only some period of training in altitude. In this case, EPO can give some advantage, since these athletes have a lower level of aerobic power (level naturally higher for people living and training in altitude), which can be increased artificially.

The positivity of Jemima produces big shadows on the full situation of Kenyan runners, because the most part of people have emotional reactions, using their belly and not their brain. The fact that, if the number 27 all time is doped, also all the athletes in front of her must be doped, is not rational, and not supported by any real evidence, apart the sense of doubt that we unconsciously create in our mind (for example, for association now it's easy to think Sarah Chepchirchir, sister of Talam, husband and coach of Jemima, can be doped, looking at her result and at her link with the group).

Sometimes our suspicions can be confirmed, but the most part of times are only rumors without any foundation.

Anyway, I'm not only for banning all the athletes clearly doped for long periods (4 years is already a long life for an athlete), but also for cancelling ALL THEIR PREVIOUS RESULTS, also if were clean (for example, one Youth title of 15 years before).

And I bless all the OOC tests, hoping their number can increase, because tough and numerous tests are the only defense for clean athletes against the raise of skepticism about top results, especially from people not knowing anything about the athletic history (for who thinks the "clean" limit is 2:10 : do you know that in 1985 not an African, but Steve Jones from Wales, ran 2:07:13 without rabbits, with a crazy split at HM of 61:53, having as doping 5 beers every day, and that Carlos Lopes, already 37, ran 2:07:12 without any idea about what to eat and without any supplement ?).

the real deal wrote:

Why So Late To The Game wrote:

James I am still waiting for you (or anyone else who competed at the D1 college level) to post their 5K PR at age 23 and compare it to their 5K PR at age 42 to prove that Lagat could possibly be clean. If we can get linked evidence that even 10 out of the 20,000 D1 college runners ran must faster at age 42 than they did at D1 college level at 23 I will believe it is possible that Lagat is clean. Of course it is preposterous to even find one.

to post your college 5K PR and

Pretty sure Bill Rodgers was faster at 42 than 23.

Kevin Castille? ..

This should be archived!

Athletes train, practice, run, lift, etc. EPO is not some magic pill that you can just pop in your mouth and become the fastest runner on earth. If that is the case, Jemima should have won every race that she entered.

So I agree with your statements 100 percent.

However, rules are rules, her A sample tested positive for a banned substance, and if her B sample comes back positive, then she will be banned.....I still think that some substances like EPO and HGH should be legal in certain situations, especially while being injured. They allow you to recover faster.

Carlos Lopes wasn't blood packing?

So Mr Canova, do you believe that Rosa and gang are innocent? And it's all the fault of Kenyan doctors?

rojo wrote:

Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow.

I know there are tons of drug busts but for some reason this is blowing me away. What's the point of being a fan anymore.

I guess it's because of this.

http://www.letsrun.com/news/2016/11/dr-gabriele-rosa-talks-turning-stanley-biwott-jemima-sumgong-marathon-stars-doping-kenya/

If this holds up, Dr. Gabriela Rosa, lied to my freaking face. It reminds me ofa conversation I had with David Epstein a few years back after he helped expose Lance Armstrong as a fraud. I said, "What was the most surprising thing you learned?"

He replied along the lines of, "That a grown human being can stare you straight in the race and very convincingly tell you something with great passion that is a total lie."

I now know what he's talking about.

you are learning, very very slowly...,

rojo wrote:

rojo wrote:

Letting a high profile gold medalist get caught is clearly not their usual MO.

That's one accusation I've never really understood. We've had busts of Ben Johnson, the Russians, Mary Slaney, Justin Gatlin and more. Lots of high profile people.

Now could there be others that weren't announced? I guess it's possible.

No, you are not learning.

Bolt, Bolt and Bolt

Carl Lewis, Carl Lewis and Carl Lewis

etc. etc. etc.

in canovas position i would say the same. why would anyone give away himself? that would be stupid. the only important fact really is, that doping is easy and you wont get caught most of the time in the third world. at the same world people are very poor and can have a good life with doped running. the risk/reward equation is just to good to not do it. that people involved in this practices deny them or go the "doping does not work here" line then this is just understandable. their existence depends on it

fakerthanfake wrote:

in canovas position i would say the same. why would anyone give away himself? that would be stupid. the only important fact really is, that doping is easy and you wont get caught most of the time in the third world. at the same world people are very poor and can have a good life with doped running. the risk/reward equation is just to good to not do it. that people involved in this practices deny them or go the "doping does not work here" line then this is just understandable. their existence depends on it

If EPO didn't work the athletes wouldn't take it. If this had been a European runner or a Chinese or Japanese runner you can bet the people defending Sumgong would be spitting venom at the cheat. A large percentage of E. Africans are doped and Ratso Canova is merely trying to cover his disingenuous arse. As long as the Africans avoid out of season testing they're OK. This "champion" didn't do the usual and avoid an out of season test.

Canova is full of Bandini Fertilizer and so is that piece of filth Dr. Rosa.

I agree with you. Taking EPO raising red blood cell count (hematocrit) and therefore you have more oxygen going to the recruited working muscles. Why are these athletes taking EPO if it does not work if you are Kenyan...it is a form of candy or food for them?????? C'mon man, these athletes are cheaters pure and simple.

So if you are not technically guilty until the B sample comes back positive, why do they announce the positive A sample before knowing the results of the B sample?

This is not in defense of Jemima, just a legit question. Seems like if the B sample of an athlete happens to come back clean, their reputation would forever be ruined dispite being cleared. Doesn't seem like a fair process in that respect.

The Dingo^3 wrote:

Anyone find it interesting that Kenyans went nuts at Chelanga for making a sarcastic comment about Africa being tough to race in, but they don't seem to care when "one of their own" makes a disgrace of their country by cheating?

Kenyan-runner-twitter laid into Sammy for days, but I don't see a peep from that same group about Sumgong ruining their reputation here. It's odd what they choose to take seriously and choose to ignore.

Far from being "ignored", you have no idea the cloud over Kenyan athletics. It's all over the news and fully understood the damage to the reputation of hardworking athletes will probably be irreparable because now every Kenyan performance will be questioned. I can't even begin to fathom how anyone would do this knowing the consequences. Oh, and on top of the social ostracism, she could be going to jail.

Barakus Obama wrote:

ITBSIP

What does this mean?? They keep repeating it in the text

Iliotibial band syndrome is painful.

It might be because of the upcoming marathons and the end of the World Marathon Major cycle. The WMM sponsored the additional OOC testing and might have had as a condition that they be notified because they do not want someone with a not-yet-announced positive racing in the WMM or to affect the series winner, and Sumgong was leading the series.

This might have also led Sumgong's team to let it be announced. Clearly, they could not race London; there might even be clauses in the race that if you race while you have something pending you lose your prior titles/result with a loss of the prize money as well.

Just a guess, but not inconsistent with the 'known' facts in this case.

Renato Canova wrote:

...

And I bless all the OOC tests, hoping their number can increase, because tough and numerous tests are the only defense for clean athletes against the raise of skepticism about top results, especially from people not knowing anything about the athletic history (for who thinks the "clean" limit is 2:10 : do you know that in 1985 not an African, but Steve Jones from Wales, ran 2:07:13 without rabbits, with a crazy split at HM of 61:53, having as doping 5 beers every day, and that Carlos Lopes, already 37, ran 2:07:12 without any idea about what to eat and without any supplement ?).

Thanks for your response. But, since Lopes did run 2:07, perhaps steak and red wine is the right diet for marathoners.

He does not mention them so his position has not changed. He basically says this confirms this his position is correct because, you know, she really is not that fast. Canova's trick is to take the worst message board arguments and use them as straw men to defend his friends and preemptively absolve any top athletes that he trained. I can create a silly example to illustrate. Imagine if Mo Farrah were caught. Then Canova said EPO couldn't help top, well trained Kenyan or Ethiopian runners and any improvement for Farah should not mean other top runners would benefit because Farrah's PRs are only in the all time 20s (5000) and teens (10000). Plus Farrah never beat Bekele, etc in his prime. He does stuff like that over and over again.

Queens Queens wrote:

So Mr Canova, do you believe that Rosa and gang are innocent? And it's all the fault of Kenyan doctors?