Great interview with Steve Cram - says Jakob has no chance of WRs this year

Yes, pure fact. that a 23 years old can't improve his 1500m PB which he has set at age 22 by 0.56% during the rest of his career. I can understand now that real facts are not yours.

I have gone back to the opening post to recall exactly what Cram reportedly was saying about Jakob:

1. Jakob is too distracted by the 5000m AND

2. He won´t break the 1500m/ mile WR before he improves his speed. (to be discussed in a later post).

Ad. 1.

Cram seems to mean that long distance training compromises Jakob´s speed development. Most posters on this thread seem to be of the same opinion - that training of endurance comes on the expense of speed - but is it true?

Another former WR holder (in the 800m, 1000m and mile) seems to have another opinion:

Peter Snell who after his running career became a renown scientist (PhD in exercise physiology) has in several interviews described how an athlete can train both slow and fast muscle fibres in the same training session. The mechanism should be: To run long and fast enough to exhaust the slow muscle - depleting the glucogen deposits - whereafter first normal fast (2a) fibres are recruited and after further running some seldom fast (2b or 2x) fibres take over. In this way an athlete can train both the slow and 2 types of fast muscle fibres in the same training run. AND THEREFORE IN THE SAME TIME IMPROVE BOTH ENDURANCE AND SPEED.

It should also be possible to recruit the 2 types of fast muscle fibres by good intensity interval training.

Sources:

The subject is discussed quite extensively in the beginning of the rather long interview.

In this old letsrun thread regarding a later interview with Snell he calls the above mechanism one the most important findings in his scientific career.

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But one thing is theory another praxis. Is there any evidence that this works in real life?

I will provide some evidence in my next post.

You chose to skip over many 800m gold medalists and more than several 800m world record holders. Why are you quoting Peter Snell regarding 800m training? If Peter Snell were 12 to 27 years old today, Snell would have been an 800m specialist. Fast shoes, fast tracks and modern training wouldn't make Snell a sub-3:29 1500m man today. If Snell were age 12 to age 27 today, he wouldn't train as he did. The last 800m Olympic gold medalist who trained in a similar manner to Snell, Steve Ovett. Ovett underachieved, 800m if we judge by personal best.

No he just understands physiology and isn't a biased idiot like you. There's merit to that.

This site is beyond toxic.

Absolutely!

Who is Steve cram?

At least we can both laugh about that lol.

Peter Snell himself is a good example for how an athlete can improve BOTH his endurance AND his speed in the same time.

It is wellknown that Snell (at 19) started with marathon training because his trainer, Arthur Lydiard, convinced him that with his natural speed by developing his endurance he would be a top 800m runner.

Before the marathon training had a significant effect Snell competed in NZ´s X country champs over 10km and became no 56 out 58 competitors. But already next year after one more year of marathon base training he became no. 4 in the same X country champs so his endurance improved rapidly.

But what about his speed and his 800m times? They went down very fast too. Lydiard had said in order to go through 1:50 Snell just needed some more endurance because it wasn´t a problem to run 400m in 55 sec; he just needed some more stamina to run 2 of them in 55.

Before the Rome Olympics 1960 Snell´s 800m was down at 1:49 and he was with some public concern chosen to the NZ team as an internationally rather unknown 800m runner.

At the Olympics Snell due to his superior endurance used the rounds as sharpeners ( there were 2 heats the first day, then semifinal and final in 3 consecutive days). Snell broke his PB 3 times, the last time in the final with 1:46.48. A final where Snell famously outsprinted the heavy favorite, the Belgian WR holder Moens.

After Rome Snell continued with marathon training in the base training period and now he started to also bring down his mile times (from about 4:10 rapidly to a bit over 4. And then in 1962 where he would try to break 4 he not only did that but also broke the WR running 3:54.

His X country ability also improved since he managed to win this 10 km championship after Rome.

But what about the 800m? Was he able to maintain his speed? Well, he managed to break the WR with a 1:44.1 on a grass track. This record stood until Nick Willis came around.

But what about his finishing speed after all this marathon training? When Snell was at his best he had completely superior finishing power both in the 800m and the 1500m/ the mile. This can be seen in this video from from the Tokyo 800m and 1500m finals in 1964.

But did Snell have this superior endurance and speed because he in training BOTH TRAINED HIS SLOW FIBRES AND THE 2 TYPES OF FAST FIBRES?

He and Lydiard didn´t know the physiological explanation but they knew by experience that the 20 mile long sunday mountain run was beneficial for both endurance and speed.

In my next post I will give some recent examples of athletes who have improved their endurance and speed simultaneously.

Willis never broke 1:45 for 800m. Snell still holds the NZ record.

Your points are interesting but I would differ in one significant aspect. Snell didn't work to try to actually increase his speed, only to "sharpen" for competition. He was always fast. It was his speed that persuaded Lydiard he could be a top 800 runner. But to succeed Lydiard believed he needed to increase his endurance, because he had learned from his training methods that even in an event like the 800 endurance was crucial. He proved this when Snell came to dominate an event that included faster runners - like George Kerr, who could run 21-low for the 200, or Bill Crothers, who could run 46 for the quarter.

Lydiard training wasn't designed to increase base speed. Snell's fastest 200, which was Lydiard's test for speed, was close to 22-flat. Jakob will be nowhere near that. I would estimate he wouldn't be much below 24. Training could sharpen that for his distance races but it won't make him significantly faster - a couple of tenths possibly but certainly not even half a second at that distance. Jakob has to use what he's got, which is less speed than his rivals over the distance but the edge in endurance.

Really funny - ha ha ha.

Snell didn't underachieve, training as he did. Two 800 Olympic golds - and a 1500 gold. He would still have been a 1500 runner today. After early '62, when he broke the wr, he saw himself as a "miler". At his peak he had an unbeatable kick. He would have caused a lot of problems for Jakob, who doesn't have that kind of finishing power.

So, maybe next year?

I must admit that is true. I think I confused it with the Oceania Record in the 800m which should have been broken now. By first Peter Bol and then Joseph Deng.

But the argument still stands that Peter Snell with marathon training managed to improve both his 800m time AND his 10k significantly after some few annual base training periods starting in his late teens.

Are there any recent examples of top runners who improved their endurance AND simultaneously improved their speed or at least kept their speed.

Yes, the 2 protagonists in the commonly agreed narrative that Jakob has inferior speed to other top milers: Wightman and Kerr.

Wightman

Reportedly started to do more aerobic training up to the 2022 season resulting in a big improvement in his 3000m PB running 7:37 indoors in the early 2022. As wellknown he went on to improve his 1500m PB when be beat Jakob in the WC final in Eugene the same year. But did this improved endurance compromise his speed? Not at all: Wightman shortly after Eugene improved his 800m PB with 0.53 sec and his 1000m with 2.4 sec. So he was able get more endurance while at least maintaining his speed which is contrary to what most letsrunners would theorize.

Kerr

Also started to train more aerobically some years ago running a HM in 63 in late 2022 and a 61 on the same course a year later. And an impressive 3000m PB in 7:33 in early 2023. And a big improvement of the indoor WB in the 2 miles some months ago. But have the improved endurance harmed his speed? Apparently not since he finished his win in the Indoor 3000m in Glasgow in low 25 for the last 200m. Has anyone ever finished faster in the 3000m? Also: Most recently he ran a high 1:45 in the 800m which has made some (British/ Scottish) patriots to predict that he can run at least low 1:44 this year (and I tend to agree: If Wightman could run well under 1:44 Kerr must be able to run at least 1:44 flat). BUT THAT ALSO MEANS THAT HE HAS BEEN ABLE TO IMPROVE BOTH HIS ENDURANCE AND HIS SPEED IN THE SAME SEASON.

Another recent example

Gourley

Who started to train more aerobically some years ago improving his 5000m time from 13:34 in 2021 to 13:16 in 2022 and 13.11 in 2023. From 2021 he improved his 800m time from 1:47.24 to 1:44.82 in 2022 and 1:45.49 in 2023. Gourley had run 1:46 in 2019 but seemed to have stagnated UNTIL HE IMPROVED HIS ENDURANCE. It is wellknown that Gourley also improved his 1500m PB in the same period from 3:35.79 in 2021 to 3:30.60 in 2023.

I have in my previous posts argued that doing more aerobic training not necessarily compromise your speed and performances on the 1500m and 800m so Cram´s statement that Jakob gets distracted from the 5000m seems questionable. Examples was Peter Snell, Wightman, Kerr and Gourley who all improved significantly both in the shorter and the longer in the same seasons.

Of course the 5000m can distract Jakob from the 1500m if the latter is run AFTER the 5000m. But that is not the case in Paris so there should be no problem in this respect.

But is Cram´s other statement that Jakob won´t break the WRs in the 1500m and the mile before he improves his speed correct?

This statement seems to imply that Jakob has inferior speed compared to other top milers which possibly is according to what most posters on this long thread believe.

But is it true? I don´t think so. No current miler has better finishing speed in the 1500m than Jakob in my opinion.

I will elaborate on that in my next post.

If he’s such a fantastic running guru, shouldn’t colleges hire him to evaluate potential recruits? I doubt if being a sports physiologist gives him a unique ability to draw conclusions from Ingebrigtsen’s 800m PR.

See my post above (it is post 200 from page 10 inthe bottom).

I will add the following to the discussion of the speed of Wightman and Kerr vs. Jakob:

Jakob has outsprinted Wightman and Kerr many times starting when Jakob was 17 vs Wightman and 15 vs Kerr. Jakob hasn´t lost more than 1 important race to each (not counting rounds) so was it really superior speed who gave Wightman and Kerr their rather narrow wins in WC 2022 and WC 2023 respectively?

Imagine that Kerr had been frontrunning the last 1000m as Jakob did in the 1500m final in Budapest 2023. Would Kerr also have won under these conditions? Of course not. I would estimate that he at least would have run 1 sec slower whereas Jakob without having taken the wind would have run equally faster.

Or perhaps even better: Let´s say Kipsang had been doing the front running. Kerr would have been running the same time as in the final whereas Jakob would have saved his energy so he could have outsprinted Kerr as he has done so many times before.

So isn´t Kerr´s win -rather than caused by superior speed - caused by the two of them not running on equal terms?

The same goes for Wightman who by the way has to prove that he can come back to his 2022 late summer level.

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Armstrong is certain that Jakob has inferior natural speed, inferior to his 2 Scottish favorites AND to most other top milers as well. But how does he explain that Jakob already was able to beat them as a teenager where at least the 2 Scots had a significant advantage due to their higher age? If the argument is that the Scots have improved their speed as they matured why can´t Jakob do he same (Armstrong is certain he can´t!).

In my opinion Jakob certainly has improved his speed from year to year. It is easy to see if we look at his battles with Tim in DL over the years. In 2018 and 2019 Tim was rather superior. He could easily run away from Jakob (and anyone else). In 2020 Jakob came closer and in 2021 they were more or less equal. In the DL final that year Tim had to make a slight Paul Chelimo when Jakob almost got him on the line.

From 2022 Jakob has outsprinted Tim easily even i DL Oslo 2023 where Tim ran low 3:29 and had the advantage that Jakob was doing the frontrunning.

And Jakob will possibly continue to improve his speed the next years barring illness and injury. And he doesn´t need to change anything in his training which has served him well both in developing endurance and speed.