UPenn swimmer comes out as trans / switches to women's team after competing on men's team for 3 years and is dominating NCAA

SDSU Aztec wrote:The difference between the men's and women's winning 500m times at the last championships was 26 seconds. To date, Thomas has only slowed by 16 seconds, so clearly the hormone treatments are not leveling the playing field.

NCAA rule requires an trans athlete to be on hormone treatment for one year without any specific upper limit for the T-level. Cece Telfer ran 57.53 in 2019, but that time is not listed on WA's leading time for 2019, because presumably she was not in compliance with the WA's testosterone rule.

It's interesting to see if Thomas will show up for the World Championships trial a month after the NCAA championship. If she doesn't, that should mean she is ineligible under the FINA rule.

Just Another Hobby Jogger wrote:

SDSU Aztec wrote:The difference between the men's and women's winning 500m times at the last championships was 26 seconds. To date, Thomas has only slowed by 16 seconds, so clearly the hormone treatments are not leveling the playing field.

NCAA rule requires an trans athlete to be on hormone treatment for one year without any specific upper limit for the T-level. Cece Telfer ran 57.53 in 2019, but that time is not listed on WA's leading time for 2019, because presumably she was not in compliance with the WA's testosterone rule.

It's interesting to see if Thomas will show up for the World Championships trial a month after the NCAA championship. If she doesn't, that should mean she is ineligible under the FINA rule.

And again, I will ask rhetorically, does hormone treatment therapy make him shorter, reduce this shoulder width, make his arms shorter, or make his hands and feet smaller?

Testosterone level matters. But going through puberty with raging testosterone also matters, and it matters for life.

Lenny Leonard wrote:

You just referred to her as "she," which is a gendered pronoun. Which gender? Female!

Is female one of the sporting categories that we have? Yes!

Doesn't it make logical sense that if a person is a female, she should participate in sports as a female? Yes!

I fully appreciate the complexities of gender identity. This issue does not concern that. It is a binary issue (for now), and it is clear as day that women should compete against women.

I’m going to agree with you here. It is clear as day that biological women should compete with biological women, likewise for biological men. The real grey areas are people who do not fit neatly into those categories, hardly the case here.

I (and others) used “she” to be polite with regard to “her” preference. But if that confuses you, how about we just restate that he went the first 20+ years of life competing with all the other men with penises and can go right on doing so now if he wants to.

Tatar... wrote:

There's nothing really biological about race and the same can be said of gender.

If you don't accept them as women then you are 100% denying their existence. .

I don't give a sh** about gender. I care about sex.

There is something 100% biological about a woman having uteruses, menstruation and giving birth. A man will never do that - nor will a trans woman.

I'm not denying Lia Thomas existence. It sounds like you are the one ignorning the science and denying the existence of the fact that 100+ million BIOLOGICAL women give birth every year.

We didn't start women's sports because we wanted a special category of sports for people who want to wear makeup, dress 'effeminately and be called she. We did it because their bodies are not as good at sports as men's on average because they are designed to give birth.

Using hormones to limit T in the present doesn't negate the lifetime before that the athlete had to bulk up and live as a man.

Look, until we start to see every winner at events be trans women or cis women get absolutely destroyed to the point that they are vegetables in combat sports nothing will change.

I do predict there will be a tragic of farcical event that leads to more stringent rules. Tragic as in a fight or rugby game ending in a death or vegetative state or farcical meaning every winner at an event is a trans athlete. We should be hoping the latter happens soon to move the scales.

Lenny Leonard wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

She doesn't - and he has just explained why.

You just referred to her as "she," which is a gendered pronoun. Which gender? Female!

Is female one of the sporting categories that we have? Yes!

Doesn't it make logical sense that if a person is a female, she should participate in sports as a female? Yes!

I fully appreciate the complexities of gender identity. This issue does not concern that. It is a binary issue (for now), and it is clear as day that women should compete against women.

I referred to her as "she" as a courtesy, not as a recognition of a biological fact. "She" is a biological he.

Race is a biological fact. Jesse Owens, Eliud Kipchoge and Duke Ellington are black. I am white. The belief that some races are inferior/superior is not biological; it is a prejudice. But it is a prejudice that is based on biology - but erroneously. You therefore conflate "race" and "racism" erroneously. You are also completely wrong about white shared racial identity; the Republican Party embraces it.

Lenny Leonard wrote:

“Fairness” is not what we should be making decisions on. That is the kind of stuff that 10-year-olds care about. We should be concerning ourselves with participation and the absence of discrimination.

The logical conclusion of this is the elimination of sex segregation in sport.

Go away

Armstronglivs wrote:

Lenny Leonard wrote:

You just referred to her as "she," which is a gendered pronoun. Which gender? Female!

Is female one of the sporting categories that we have? Yes!

Doesn't it make logical sense that if a person is a female, she should participate in sports as a female? Yes!

I fully appreciate the complexities of gender identity. This issue does not concern that. It is a binary issue (for now), and it is clear as day that women should compete against women.

I referred to her as "she" as a courtesy, not as a recognition of a biological fact. "She" is a biological he.

Go away

liar soorer wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

I referred to her as "she" as a courtesy, not as a recognition of a biological fact. "She" is a biological he.

Go away

Have you noticed that it's not working for you? Like the rest of your arguments?

RossiCheated wrote:

Just Another Hobby Jogger wrote:

NCAA rule requires an trans athlete to be on hormone treatment for one year without any specific upper limit for the T-level. Cece Telfer ran 57.53 in 2019, but that time is not listed on WA's leading time for 2019, because presumably she was not in compliance with the WA's testosterone rule.

It's interesting to see if Thomas will show up for the World Championships trial a month after the NCAA championship. If she doesn't, that should mean she is ineligible under the FINA rule.

And again, I will ask rhetorically, does hormone treatment therapy make him shorter, reduce this shoulder width, make his arms shorter, or make his hands and feet smaller?

Testosterone level matters. But going through puberty with raging testosterone also matters, and it matters for life.

But the real question is whether a trans woman retains sports specific advantage after losing muscle strength with hormone therapy. A bigger frame without corresponding strength is not necessarily an advantage in a given sport. Otherwise, a bigger athlete would always win over a smaller athlete in every sport. Whether there is any significant residual advantage after hormone therapy can be determined only with sports specific data. And I don't think we have anything close to sufficient data in any sport.

Thomas proves the current NCAA rule is not sufficient in swimming, The current FINA rule may or may not be sufficient in swimming. We will not know until Thomas swims in a FINA sanctioned event. We know the current NCAA rule is not sufficient for track & field. (Cece Telfer example above.) But we don't know if the current WA rule is sufficient until a trans women competes under the WA rule, and we get to compare the pre and post transition performances.

I just watched Florida State beat BYU in the women's soccer championship game, which was 0-0 and went to penalty kicks.

One or two very skilled trans women on either team would have totally changed the balance of the game. Someone who had played as a boy and man through age group and then into college before transitioning could run the show. Give either team one trans midfielder and one forward and it would go from 0-0 to 5-0.

Give either team a typically built goalkeeper from the men's ranks and it would be eye popping. Someone who stands 6'2" and has a 6'4" to 6'6" wingspan.

Armstronglivs wrote:

liar soorer wrote:

Go away

Have you noticed that it's not working for you? Like the rest of your arguments?

Be off with you.

liar soorer wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

Have you noticed that it's not working for you? Like the rest of your arguments?

Be off with you.

I think it's time you saw a therapist.

The issue isn't size per se but the combined physiological advantages of maleness. Bikile is not a big athlete but the advantages of male muscle development, bone structure, and heart and lung capacity made him an immeasurably better athlete than any woman could be, including those of a bigger stature.

Armstronglivs wrote:

liar soorer wrote:

Be off with you.

I think it's time you saw a therapist.

Go away; you only post to irritate.