Isn't "Event Specificity" More Important Than "VO2max" And "LT" Zones And All That?

But JD's long runs are some of the fastest and longest I've ever seen in an elite marathon schedule. Perhaps your reading it differently than I am but something like 8 miles at E pace + 8 miles at M pace + 1 mile at T pace + 4 miles at M pace + 1 mile at T pace + 1 mile at M pace (23 miles total) is as long and hard as anything I've ever done in training. Maybe your reading the "+" signs as suggesting that there is recovery between each run? I read it as 8 miles easy followed by 15 miles at marathon pace with a couple 1 mile surges in there. Before I saw these types of workouts on paper I thought the longest marathon pace run somebody would ever do would be to jump in a half marathon for a goal pace run.

Coach Mook wrote:

Your welcome.

You're.

Grammer and spelling wrote:

Coach Mook wrote:

Your welcome.

You're.

No, Im gonna go ahead and say that it is his.

It does seem an R between .92 and .96 would be possible, if some energy is taken in during the rce. However, looking back at the data I have (but only on 6 runners) I found that the R drops steadily over the course of the 2+ hours that we did the testing, with values dropping steadily from an average of .93 (30 minutes into the run) to an average of .86 at the 2-hour point and .83 during the final 20 minutes , all while still going at the same pace and not feeling that bad (1 guy was hurting and had .81 toward the end, but I think it was more a heat problem than energy.) Looks like to body does sense a loss of stored glycogen and increases the fat contribution to try to conserve glycogen. So pace was held constant even during the drop in R. You must get expired air to get an R value so there would have to be some way of connecting R with perceived effort, which doesn't seem possible if these runners we tested all kept the same pace up while R was dropping. We didn't ask for periodic ratings of perceived exertion. I imagine this is a good area to do some research in, and how low must the R go before actually finding it necessary to slow down. Naturally being able to run a good pace with a lower R value would be good, but another research project necessary to figure that out.

Relative to the question about no longer hard runs in my elite program, I agree with the post that referred to the combined MP + T + MP + T running that is quite demanding and lasts a long time. I guess it depends on what is considered a hard long run, but always considered that MP+T thing about as hard as you can get and still be long

Oops! I made the same mistake as Coach Mook with "your" instead of "you're". Phew! Got to it before the spelling police caught me!

Oh, and thanks for your post jtupper. I had a VO2 max test recently that included R values and the way you are explaining it gives me even more insight into how the numbers relate to my current fitness and upcoming marathon. At the pace, heart rate, and VO2 where I thought my marathon pace fell I recorded R values of .92 to .95. When I reached threshold the R values fell between .97 and 1.00 (readings were taken every :05).

Which pretty much shows that threshold pace will wipe out the glycogen stores, well before reaching 26 miles.

jtupper wrote:

Which pretty much shows that threshold pace will wipe out the glycogen stores, well before reaching 26 miles.

Is it possible to ingest enough carb/glycogen during a marathon to be able to run threshold pace for the duration?

If you take threshold pace as being half marathon pace, no you can't ingest enough carbs to maintain that pace for the full marathon.

The most I have ingested is about 150 grams, and even though I did do my best marathon race, I was well below my half marathon pace.

It's an interesting phenomenon isn't it Jack? the way we become more efficient during a marathon.

The question is; are we more fuel efficient? or do we become more energy efficient in terms of running economy by improving our running style during the course of the race?

It may be a bit of both, but it is interesting to note that the same phenomenon often occurs the day after a race also.

Of course there is a catch, this increase in efficiecy is only temporary and is always followed by exhaustion due to glycogen depletion.

However, wouldn't it be true to say that this zone that preceeds depletion is one of the most important areas of training for all distance athletes? i.e. training hard to extend distance at that pace. This is the basis of the Hansons project marathon training where they don't go over 17 miles, but do so on tired legs.

I agree that it is intersting and must stimulate some more research. I have looked at running economy (every 30 minutes) during a 20-mile run with a small group of guys, and expected economy to worsen as the body (running muscles) supposedly tired, but it did not (statistically) do so even though R dropped a little (enough to think the O2 demand would have gone up a little, which it did, but not significantly as mentioned). One guy did deteriorate in economy and was the least conditioned of the group. We even had the subjects change foot plant (to two different techniques), thinking maybe shifting muscle work from tiring quads to calves, etc., would allow less-stressed muscles to do a better job, but, no, whatever foot plant was most economical for each runner remained the most economical throughout. As usual, it is almost impossible to demand a certain training program for one group of runners while a 2nd (equally talented and equally fit)group does something else, for several months, to see which way elicits the better marathon performance.

A. Einstein said, "You do not really understand something unless you can explain it to your grandmother."

Consider me your grandmother, all you exercise researchers.

This is a fascinating discussion, but I wonder if any of you might take a stab at explaining -- in simple terms -- the basis of this discussion, and the overall implications for training.

My stab at it would be something like this: glycogen supplies are the most effecient fuel for running long distances, but there's no way to race an entire marathon on glycogen alone -- you have to draw on fat as well. To train for this, you should mix your paces between faster and slower than marathon pace, in order to tap different fuel sources. The exact balance of fast and slow running is tricky to figure out, however.

Is that it?

I think it originally was "... understandable to someone who knows nothing about the topic under discussion."

jtupper wrote:

I think it originally was "... understandable to someone who knows nothing about the topic under discussion."

O-O

XXX

I've been away for a bit....must catch up....great thread....bump, etc .... :)

B0ulderite wrote:

My stab at it would be something like this: glycogen supplies are the most effecient fuel for running long distances, but there's no way to race an entire marathon on glycogen alone -- you have to draw on fat as well. To train for this, you should mix your paces between faster and slower than marathon pace, in order to tap different fuel sources. The exact balance of fast and slow running is tricky to figure out, however.

Is that it?

I think you have offered a pretty good summary of the most recent discussion on this thread. I'm sure we all agree that glycogen is the preferred fuel for faster endurance running, though fat certainly contributes albeit at a smaller fraction of the whole. I believe we can also all agree that glycogen stores are likely to be exhausted before completion of a respectable marathon.

I'm still reading this thread because I remain uncertain as to if/how the fat contribution can be enhanced to allow a runner to maintain a desired pace for a longer duration. Can fats contribution be increased to allow for improved performance? If so, exactly what type of training will accomplish this? There have been some good posts around that topic, but I'm hoping for more.

Thanks to all -- especially jtupper, wellnow, Coach K, sjm1368, S. Canaday, et.al. -- for keeping this stimulating discussion alive!

boom wrote:

jtupper wrote:

I like vVO2max (I better, since I invented the term)

Wrong. Everybody knows it was Tinman !

Since Lydiard isnt your father may i consider Tinman as your son ?

Hahaha. I "got" that one! :)

Para 1 contradicts para 2? :) I'm not trying to be a smart ass. I very much agree with the idea that a long run, with some MP in it, is a very important thing to do in Marathon Training. Why "hammer" that last hour? Why not do MP?

When we toe the line in any race, isn't it important to know how you responded in "specific" sessions?

This is a great post, thank you. It reminds me that we train to race, and I would argue that training must build up to, then surround important race-specific sessions. I would spend many months as a Marathoner getting towards 32km+ runs with some goal MP sessions in there. That would be the peak phase of training, when those sessions occur. I'm not saying that these "specific sessions" must be done daily, or in all phases, but they must be the prime focus in training....training towards making thses sessions work.

Perhaps the surrounding stuff is "training to train", and the specific sessions I refer to are "training to race". Most training must be "training to train". ???

I stand by my Einstein citation:

"You do not really understand something unless you can explain it to your grandmother." - Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

Several sources support this.

I may not have your exquisite understanding of physiology, jtupper, but I love my hackneyed quotations!

Skuj,

I didn't mean to make it look like I was contradicting myself. I basically meant to state that even in your long runs you don't need to hit marathon goal pace (you might be 20sec/mile too slow) or maybe the last two miles you are 20sec/mile fast. I guess somewhere along the line you are hitting MP pace....but that is not the goal pace to run at (in the long run workout).

When I say "hammer" the last hour, I don't mean to say run MP or faster. If you have been running steady already for an hour (ie 30-45sec/mile slower than MP pace), it is quite hard to even drop the pace down to MP pace for that long....I guess this may only be true for those that run 3hrs or faster though.

Yes, I believe in having some specific marathon sessions...but you can do something like 2 by 5 miles at 15k race pace w/ a 5min rest and something like a 22 mile long run averaging about 20-40sec/mile slower than MP....and still have the confidence to toe the line in a marathon and maintain a goal MP that you've only trained above and below most of the time.