Poor Linden Hall. She broke the Australian women’s 1500 record last year at Pre, running 3:56.92 and beating Hull. She ran half a second faster today, but this time got dusted by Hull.
Have been watching Hull since her Oregon days (she was in Emma Abrahamson’s videos + I’m Aussie and it made me notice her when I heard the accent). I’ll say that Linden Hall has never been anywhere near as talented as Hull (sorry, but true), and if she can run 3.56, then Hull can run miles better. Maybe I’m biased, but if Hull has done her first real altitude stint, then possibly a combo of perfect race, consistent training without drama and injury, a drop of 5 lbs or more + being a hyper altitude responder.
The mid pack elites are now all running circa 3.55. Standard has shifted down hugely for whatever reason.
I appreciate these insights because I haven't followed either of them closely. It's interesting to look at their head to head 1500 results on the World Athletics site. Hull has a decisive 11-4 advantage, but the gap appears to have grown considerably this year. Not including the 2019 Pre Classic in which Hall ran a nightmarish 4:24 (did she fall in that race?), an indoor race that Hall didn't finish, and a heat in the 2023 Australian Championships in which they weren't running all out, here are their head to head results using first names (to reduce confusion) and the gap between them:
2019 World Championships: Linden 4:06.39, Jessica 4:01.80; Jessica won by 4.59
Tokyo Olympics: Linden 3:59.01, Jessica 4:02.63; Linden won by 3.62
2021 Pre Classic: Linden 3:59.73, Jessica 4:05.33; Linden won by 5.60
2022 World Championships: Linden 4:04.65, Jessica 4:01.81; Jessica won by 2.84
2022 Commonwealth Games: Linden 4:05.09, Jessica 4:07.31; Linden won by 2.22
2023 Australian Championships Final: Linden 4:05.65, Jessica 4:04.19; Jessica won by 1.46
2023 Golden Gala Pietro Mennea: Linden 4:02.43, Jessica 3:57.29; Jessica won by 5.14
2023 Memorial van Damme: Linden 4:00.41, Jessica 3:57.75; Jessica won by 2.66
2023 Pre Classic: Linden 3:56.92, Jessica 3:57.57; Linden won by 0.65
2024 Australian Championships Final: Linden 4:05.03, Jessica 4:01.39; Jessica won by 3.64
2024 Pre Classic: Linden 4:01.97, Jessica 3:55.97; Jessica won by 6.00
2024 Paris Diamond League: Linden 3:56.40, Jessica 3:50.83; Jessica won by 5.57
Do you have more information on Jessica's training at altitude? In the post-race interview, she mentioned she just came down from St. Moritz, but then later on in the same interview she said, "I haven't done a ton of altitude." I'm curious how many weeks she's spent at altitude.
Her performance is "otherworldly". It has put her in the same company as the doped Chinese and Dibaba, from being nowhere near that.
Also, to take your point about 3:55 being akin to 3:30 for a man, she has effectively run about 3:26.
Hate to be agreeing with Armstronglivs but he's 100% right here. Look at the list of sub-3:53 women:
Kipyegon (Kenyan during the height of Kenyan doping busts)
Dibaba (coach a known supplier)
Yunxia (Ma's Army)
Hull (former NOP, now trains alone)
Bo (Ma's Army)
Yinglai (Ma's Army)
Junxia (Ma's Army)
Hassan (former NOP, now trains alone)
Kazankina (Soviet bloc)
Heck, even the 3:53s and 3:54s are suspicious. Everyone except Muir is either Ethiopian, Ma's Army, Soviet Bloc, or Shelby Houlihan. I'm willing to believe the East Africans have some amazing genetics, and Muir has been consistent at a high level for a very long time, so I could believe there are some clean times in that group. But the sub-3:53 list is pretty damning evidence.
If Ma had been given modern footwear and wavelight pacing, I reckon his women would have bested Roger Bannister.
I’m becoming more and more convinced that those two factors are rendering meaningless any comparisons with the past.
Yeah Jessica is a blonde woman and Katir is an arab guy. No wonder one is treates lile a goddess and the other one like sh-t.
You now understand racism.
Racism is a very real and vile thing and it is certainly a factor when it comes to some doping accusations. But that isn’t influencing what’s been said in this case. Everyone derided Katir, for example, however not Mechaal.
You mean it's racist somehow because YOU know that Jessica has at least 3 whereabouts failures that have all gone UNREPORTED/no suspension ??, but Katir's 3 were reported, hence his suspension ? - or did WADA INVENT Katir's 3 failures, because they are racist ? The fact seems to be that Katir is a cheat...which makes me dislike him ...and I'd probably feel racist about it, but even he doesn't know if he's a cheating Morroncan or a cheating Spainyard. ...and changing his hair color to blond won't save him - loser.
If she was going to make a drug fueled big improvement she would have needed to be really hitting the PED's hard all year. Surely it would be difficult to get around the testers, or at least she would have one or two missed tests under her belt.
Lol, meatheads in gyms getting steroids from bikies and other meatheads.
If you're a competitive athlete in Australia, especially in an Olympic year, you're going to get tested numerous times and when you least expect, even by the team doctors leading up to and while at the Olympics.
If you're into, or intending to take PEDs, the last place you would do it is Australia.
Australia protects its athletes and sports stars very well indeed. Even if they tested positive,nobody would hear about it,and the athlete would either keep competing,or switch to another sport. Australia plays the sporting game extremely well.If you think their best athletes arent doping,you better think again. Also Its very easy to get drugs.
Yeah Jessica is a blonde woman and Katir is an arab guy. No wonder one is treates lile a goddess and the other one like sh-t.
You now understand racism.
Racism is a very real and vile thing and it is certainly a factor when it comes to some doping accusations. But that isn’t influencing what’s been said in this case. Everyone derided Katir, for example, however not Mechaal.
he he he ...at least Katir's whereabouts are FINALLY now coming in to focus...we now know he won't be in Paris !!!. ...his next two years remind me of an old poem: The rain in Spain falls mainly on Katir's Kombi-van home. I wonder if he bought it from 'Kelvin Kiptum Motors'.
Hate to be agreeing with Armstronglivs but he's 100% right here. Look at the list of sub-3:53 women:
Kipyegon (Kenyan during the height of Kenyan doping busts)
Dibaba (coach a known supplier)
Yunxia (Ma's Army)
Hull (former NOP, now trains alone)
Bo (Ma's Army)
Yinglai (Ma's Army)
Junxia (Ma's Army)
Hassan (former NOP, now trains alone)
Kazankina (Soviet bloc)
Heck, even the 3:53s and 3:54s are suspicious. Everyone except Muir is either Ethiopian, Ma's Army, Soviet Bloc, or Shelby Houlihan. I'm willing to believe the East Africans have some amazing genetics, and Muir has been consistent at a high level for a very long time, so I could believe there are some clean times in that group. But the sub-3:53 list is pretty damning evidence.
If Ma had been given modern footwear and wavelight pacing, I reckon his women would have bested Roger Bannister.
I’m becoming more and more convinced that those two factors are rendering meaningless any comparisons with the past.
...lest we forget, Jessica got to smell Faith's fumes etc for 3 minutes...too bad if Jess sniffed a burrito's-worth and gets pinged for tainted competition. She has nice long legs. That can help. Makes Paris interesting. Barbie vs, Henry Rono II.
Racism is a very real and vile thing and it is certainly a factor when it comes to some doping accusations. But that isn’t influencing what’s been said in this case. Everyone derided Katir, for example, however not Mechaal.
You mean it's racist somehow because YOU know that Jessica has at least 3 whereabouts failures that have all gone UNREPORTED/no suspension ??, but Katir's 3 were reported, hence his suspension ? - or did WADA INVENT Katir's 3 failures, because they are racist ? The fact seems to be that Katir is a cheat...which makes me dislike him ...and I'd probably feel racist about it, but even he doesn't know if he's a cheating Morroncan or a cheating Spainyard. ...and changing his hair color to blond won't save him - loser.
Are you the same person to whom I was replying earlier?
Her performance is "otherworldly". It has put her in the same company as the doped Chinese and Dibaba, from being nowhere near that.
Also, to take your point about 3:55 being akin to 3:30 for a man, she has effectively run about 3:26.
Hate to be agreeing with Armstronglivs but he's 100% right here. Look at the list of sub-3:53 women:
Kipyegon (Kenyan during the height of Kenyan doping busts)
Dibaba (coach a known supplier)
Yunxia (Ma's Army)
Hull (former NOP, now trains alone)
Bo (Ma's Army)
Yinglai (Ma's Army)
Junxia (Ma's Army)
Hassan (former NOP, now trains alone)
Kazankina (Soviet bloc)
Heck, even the 3:53s and 3:54s are suspicious. Everyone except Muir is either Ethiopian, Ma's Army, Soviet Bloc, or Shelby Houlihan. I'm willing to believe the East Africans have some amazing genetics, and Muir has been consistent at a high level for a very long time, so I could believe there are some clean times in that group. But the sub-3:53 list is pretty damning evidence.
As an athletics competition fan, I just hope Yinglai makes the team and we can finally get some answers. I think the Yinglaimiester will medal, but my money is on up and coming Moroccan dark-horse, Hiedi El Guerrouj. Known in the local media as the Berka Flo-Jo.
Y’all are thinking too hard so I just went to the IAAF website myself and looked at her points and recent performances. You need look no further than this year’s indoor world’s 3000m.
8:24.39
Who was she within 2-3 seconds of? A 3:50.3 1500m runner and the world record (8:44) 3k steeplechase runner.
Citing Hull’s 1500 as your sole basis is so silly, juvenile really. Points alone shows her 3k worth a high 3:53 so she set what? An effectively 3 second PB? You can believe no one is doping, everyone is, or something in between; but at least do some basic googling and math yeah y’all?
She ran the 5th all time fastest 1500 of all time. Look at some of the men's 5th fastest all time in the distance events...
They are universally recognized as all-time greats." Hull has been in her prime for a number of years now. She has never been dominant. I wouldn't call her an also-ran but she never has been dominant or considered an all-time great. She has often finished in the "middle of the pack." The male runners never did that. They were always the ones who finished first.
BINGO! Hull was't even Laura Muir. When she was 27, Laura had won 8 DL races (including a final) and come close to medalling. Hull 1.0 had done none of those things. Hull 2.0 jumped right past Muir to # 5 all-time, a full second ahead of Hassan.
Clearly, given all of the big PRs lately, it isn't just Hull. But no other top tier pro has jumped 6.5 seconds so far so fast, so Hull isn't just another boat floating up on a rising tide.
If she was going to make a drug fueled big improvement she would have needed to be really hitting the PED's hard all year. Surely it would be difficult to get around the testers, or at least she would have one or two missed tests under her belt.
I have no bias here: Australia tests infrequently based on the Budapest stats (just 2.1 OOC tests per athlete and very few in-competition tests on average). Not the worst, but towards the back especially for a large country. I hope Hull is clean, but the stats dictate if she were Kenyan or Ethiopian she’d be tested 3-4x more frequently. I suspect after this performance she will be getting tested more, however, akin to most athletes after a major performance jump.
Y’all are thinking too hard so I just went to the IAAF website myself and looked at her points and recent performances. You need look no further than this year’s indoor world’s 3000m.
8:24.39
Who was she within 2-3 seconds of? A 3:50.3 1500m runner and the world record (8:44) 3k steeplechase runner.
Citing Hull’s 1500 as your sole basis is so silly, juvenile really. Points alone shows her 3k worth a high 3:53 so she set what? An effectively 3 second PB? You can believe no one is doping, everyone is, or something in between; but at least do some basic googling and math yeah y’all?
Sorry, Slick, but you are the one being silly. Nobody is saying Hull's 1500 is the issue. Everyone is pointing out that her jump in performances SO FAR THIS YEAR is staggering.
Pointing out that her jump started a few months ago does not help the case that there is nothing to see here.
She ran the 5th all time fastest 1500 of all time. Look at some of the men's 5th fastest all time in the distance events...
They are universally recognized as all-time greats." Hull has been in her prime for a number of years now. She has never been dominant. I wouldn't call her an also-ran but she never has been dominant or considered an all-time great. She has often finished in the "middle of the pack." The male runners never did that. They were always the ones who finished first.
BINGO! Hull was't even Laura Muir. When she was 27, Laura had won 8 DL races (including a final) and come close to medalling. Hull 1.0 had done none of those things. Hull 2.0 jumped right past Muir to # 5 all-time, a full second ahead of Hassan.
Clearly, given all of the big PRs lately, it isn't just Hull. But no other top tier pro has jumped 6.5 seconds so far so fast, so Hull isn't just another boat floating up on a rising tide.
Jess is less of a boat and more of a canoe. But either way, I hope she stays out of Paris's river of diarrhea. As an Aussie, ironically, I wouldn't mind if Kipyegon got the runs.
If she was going to make a drug fueled big improvement she would have needed to be really hitting the PED's hard all year. Surely it would be difficult to get around the testers, or at least she would have one or two missed tests under her belt.
I have no bias here: Australia tests infrequently based on the Budapest stats (just 2.1 OOC tests per athlete and very few in-competition tests on average). Not the worst, but towards the back especially for a large country. I hope Hull is clean, but the stats dictate if she were Kenyan or Ethiopian she’d be tested 3-4x more frequently. I suspect after this performance she will be getting tested more, however, akin to most athletes after a major performance jump.
Another case in point, Sarah Healy, going 3:57 in her only other sub-4 in her life. Not everyone ran super fast, though, as Ciara Mageean, the European Champion, was, was well off her lifetime best.
Yes I was surprised at Ciara - she has rivalled Laura Muir in the past and she should also be peaking.
Many PBs in that race though - some by 3/4 seconds. It’s as though the few that didn’t PB had something else going on or are tired/ not in good form
Ciara missed the national champs, stated that she has not had 100% energy levels since the Europeans.
I think she is just coming into form, that time is pretty good for her 1month our from the olympic rounds.
Great run by Sarah Healy though for her age. Only Ethiopia has runners that young running that sort of time. Credit to Jenny Meadows.
Yes I was surprised at Ciara - she has rivalled Laura Muir in the past and she should also be peaking.
Many PBs in that race though - some by 3/4 seconds. It’s as though the few that didn’t PB had something else going on or are tired/ not in good form
Ciara missed the national champs, stated that she has not had 100% energy levels since the Europeans.
I think she is just coming into form, that time is pretty good for her 1month our from the olympic rounds.
Great run by Sarah Healy though for her age. Only Ethiopia has runners that young running that sort of time. Credit to Jenny Meadows.
Thank you - that explains it. She should definitely be in contention at the Olympics. She ran well in the Euros. Incidentally lots of athletes were ill at the Euros. Hopefully all recovered and that’s it now and they can stay well for the Olympics.
Agree about Sarah Healy - the Jenny Meadows/Trevor Painter coaching team is a strong one.
Someone asked how long Jess Hull was at altitude (can’t find the post). Her instagram says she did a 5 week stint up there. And she’s fresh down - so we can hope that wasn’t her peaking and she’ll be good for the Olympics. What an amazing 1500m women’s final it will be..
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