He hasn't run much faster? He has run 1:46.44 in his only other race over the distance in the last four seasons. In an empty stadium.
What can he do over 800m?
Nobody here can know the answer. I would estimate something like 1:45.5
With proper training maybe 1:45.0
I suggest he is unlikely to get much below 1.46 unless he focuses on the event. I doubt that he will do that. Walker had faster top end speed than Jakob (22.7 over the 200) but never ran faster than the 1.44.9 he achieved early in his career. Jakob is the "slowest" athlete to dominate the 1500 that I have seen in fifty odd years. It is his astonishing endurance that enables him to win.
OK, this is your main point: "Jakob is the slowest runner to dominate the 1500m you have seen".
But is that true?
How do you explain Jakob´s easy win in Palo Alto 2018 where he at SEVENTEEN outsprinted Chelimo, Centro and Engels who are all praised as fast runners? And before you write about Jakob´s endurance shouldn´t the faster runners (in your opinion) be able to outsprint the "snail" in this rather slow race.
Jakob Ingebrigsten of Norway pulled away from a loaded field to score the biggest win of his young career at the 2018 Payton Jordan Invitational. He won the ...
And how do you explain Jakob´s finish in the 1500m final in Tokyo? As far as I can see he was sprinting as fast as Kerr the last 125-150m perhaps apart from the last meters where Jakob eased up? Don´t you consider Kerr one of the fast runners?
📲 Subscribe to @olympics: http://oly.ch/Subscribe Norway's Jakob Ingebrigtsen won the men's 1500m final at Tokyo 2020 and set an Olympic record as Kenya's T...
He hasn't run much faster? He has run 1:46.44 in his only other race over the distance in the last four seasons. In an empty stadium.
What can he do over 800m?
Nobody here can know the answer. I would estimate something like 1:45.5
With proper training maybe 1:45.0
I suggest he is unlikely to get much below 1.46 unless he focuses on the event. I doubt that he will do that. Walker had faster top end speed than Jakob (22.7 over the 200) but never ran faster than the 1.44.9 he achieved early in his career. Jakob is the "slowest" athlete to dominate the 1500 that I have seen in fifty odd years. It is his astonishing endurance that enables him to win.
I don't think many here believe JI will ever run sub 1:45. And probably not many doubt that he is one of the "slowest" 1500m world beaters.
But 1:47.22 very likely doesn't reflect his current form and 1:46.44 doesn't reflect his potential.
Not a single word so far from you to his TWO 800m races in the last FOUR seasons. One of them in an empty stadium at age 19, the other in a race where some competitors extremely under achieved time like (Van Diepen over two seconds faster shortly before and after, Deng over two seconds faster just three days after Bergen). I don't think JI also has had over two seconds left, but maybe 1? or little bit more?).
Snell didn't prove him right if he was a 1:42 runner who "only" ran 1:44
And I am a student of Lydiard.
Oh and well-kempt grass tracks are almost as fast as modern tracks.
You may be a "student" of Lydiard but you are poorly-informed. Lydiard said that Snell's 1.44 on grass was worth up to 2 seconds on modern tracks. (Snell carved 1.4 secs off the then 800m world record and 1.6secs off the then 880y record). It has somehow escaped you that in 1962 Snell wasn't running on modern tracks. If grass was as fast as modern tracks we would still be running on them. We aren't.
So why don't you apply the same logic to their 1500m times? Herb Elliot would run close to sub 3:30 if he was in last years Tokyo Olympic final, even without supershoes or any modern training refinements.
In todays DL with supershoes, I'd say
Snell 1:41/3:28
Elliott 1:43/3:26
Walker 1:43/3:29
Jakob, unlike them a 1500/5000 runner, is probably 1:45/3:27
Do you really think a random Kenyan news channel and a random news speaker know how to write and pronounce Kenyan names?
Cheruiyot and CHERUIYOT?
Please!
Cheryuiot and CHERRYIT is correct.
Good to have real experts in letsrun.
Are you sure you are experts? I was asked how his name was "promounced", which neither you nor the poster picked up. Perhaps you are both better with Kenyan names than common English.
Someone has made a typo - and you found it!!!
And it's not childish at all to point on your laughable behavior. You have destroyed so many threads over the years in this forum that it's good when people point on and ridicule all of your nonsense.
Cheryuiot - wtf?!? And you have clearly stated it IS pronounced CHERRY-IT. Not: "I have heard..." . Which for sure I also very much doubt.
It's written CHERUIYOT. It's pronounced CHERUIYOT. Wow.
I'm an expert in very few fields and a non-expert in most. And I never would pretend to be an expert when I'm not.
There's of course a difference between 800 speed and kicking ability. Jakob can run a last 200 of 26-27 off of paces fast/slow because he is so aerobically strong and capable of cruising at 3:29-3:31 pace. In the first race you linked he ran the shortest line and looked the sharpest athlete, probably because unlike the others his sharpness isn't as reliant on speedwork/race pace stuff (he does threshold/hills all year long). In the Olympic Final, everyone was stretched out as far as how fast they could go, running lifetime PBs while Jakob was within his abilities and able to close hard (and set his PB).
All this being said, Jakob doesn't profile as a 1:44 guy or capable of running 48 for the 400m. But he's fast in races where the pace is pushed because the 48/1:44 types aren't able to get into a full sprint in a 3:28-3:31 race. So while technically he is a slow, dominant athlete he more than makes up for this in his ability to handle a fast pace. What we haven't seen is if he can take the pace from either the gun or a long way out (a la El G) and win that way. Last year, Tim did him a huge favor by pushing the pace for him. At World Indoors, Tefera keyed off him (though COVID might've factored).
On the other end of the spectrum you have Tim Cheruiyot. While he is a "fast" 1500 guy, he doesn't have a superior kick either. That's why he either runs away from the field or in his best pre-injury races he would slowly ramp up the pace the last lap and then lay it down hard but not explosively fast the last 100 meters (13.1-3 splits). How does he do that while being aerobically weaker than Jakob and many of his rivals? He can handle a super-fast early pace (54pt), regather and rest in the middle and then re-accelerate while the other athletes (including Jakob until last year) wouldn't have an explosive finish left to outkick him.
You are very wrong in saying "only time will tell" btw, he will never realize his potential in the 800m, lol. I'm quite shocked how you can believe that. Olympics in '24 and '28 and then focus on the 800? Maybe that is next for Cherry It as well?
You don't grasp the point very easily, do you? We won't know whether Jakob can run much faster over the 800 until he runs it. He may but any predictions made now remain in the realm of speculation if not fantasy. You are surely a fantasist if you think he can be competitive over the 800. There is no way he runs 1.43 - as Tim has. He simply isn't a fast enough runner, which is obvious and has been obvious for years. His best alternate to the 1500 is the 5k.
Where have I claimed that he would be competetive in the 800? (Nowhere). Good that you admit that the predictions remain in the realm of speculation if not fantasy - so stop speculating on J.I's 800m potential. J.I. No one disagree that his next distance is the 5000 and no one will disagree that Cherry-It will have a better 800 pr, lol.
I suggest he is unlikely to get much below 1.46 unless he focuses on the event. I doubt that he will do that. Walker had faster top end speed than Jakob (22.7 over the 200) but never ran faster than the 1.44.9 he achieved early in his career. Jakob is the "slowest" athlete to dominate the 1500 that I have seen in fifty odd years. It is his astonishing endurance that enables him to win.
OK, this is your main point: "Jakob is the slowest runner to dominate the 1500m you have seen".
But is that true?
How do you explain Jakob´s easy win in Palo Alto 2018 where he at SEVENTEEN outsprinted Chelimo, Centro and Engels who are all praised as fast runners? And before you write about Jakob´s endurance shouldn´t the faster runners (in your opinion) be able to outsprint the "snail" in this rather slow race.
And how do you explain Jakob´s finish in the 1500m final in Tokyo? As far as I can see he was sprinting as fast as Kerr the last 125-150m perhaps apart from the last meters where Jakob eased up? Don´t you consider Kerr one of the fast runners?
"Faster" runners don't always run fast at the end of the race, if they have been stretched to the limits of their endurance. Jakob often has more strength and endurance than the competition.
His finish at Palo Alto was impressive yet his last lap was still only in the region of 55-56s off a relatively slow pace. However, his strength was clearly superior to the other runners that day.
His Olympic victory was even more impressive in a much faster race. However I still don't think his finish showed speed so much as strength. The athletes behind him had the legs run off them - thanks to Tim. I would very much doubt that Jakob would have the kind of kick Snell showed at Tokyo in '64, or Ryun at the Colosseum Relays in '67, Vassala in Munich '72, Walker at Montreal in '76, or Coe in Moscow in '80 - to mention a few. They all finished very fast. A slow or tactical championship race would likely be disastrous for him. Tokyo was ideal for him.
As far as I can see, his endurance in middle distance is off the charts. But there are many in the field who have a greater turn of speed. He makes sure they can't use it against him.
You don't grasp the point very easily, do you? We won't know whether Jakob can run much faster over the 800 until he runs it. He may but any predictions made now remain in the realm of speculation if not fantasy. You are surely a fantasist if you think he can be competitive over the 800. There is no way he runs 1.43 - as Tim has. He simply isn't a fast enough runner, which is obvious and has been obvious for years. His best alternate to the 1500 is the 5k.
Where have I claimed that he would be competetive in the 800? (Nowhere). Good that you admit that the predictions remain in the realm of speculation if not fantasy - so stop speculating on J.I's 800m potential. J.I. No one disagree that his next distance is the 5000 and no one will disagree that Cherry-It will have a better 800 pr, lol.
Then you appear to be agreeing with me that his 800 performances show he isn't fast. Perhaps you could respond to my earlier point, of how does a runner who is slower than the record-holders of the '60's and 70's run far superior times than they did over the longer distance (up to 8 secs) when they also trained to their limits?
Are you sure you are experts? I was asked how his name was "promounced", which neither you nor the poster picked up. Perhaps you are both better with Kenyan names than common English.
Someone has made a typo - and you found it!!!
And it's not childish at all to point on your laughable behavior. You have destroyed so many threads over the years in this forum that it's good when people point on and ridicule all of your nonsense.
Cheryuiot - wtf?!? And you have clearly stated it IS pronounced CHERRY-IT. Not: "I have heard..." . Which for sure I also very much doubt.
It's written CHERUIYOT. It's pronounced CHERUIYOT. Wow.
I'm an expert in very few fields and a non-expert in most. And I never would pretend to be an expert when I'm not.
If you are going to be pedantic - which you are - you need also ensure that you don't commit error yourself. If you listen to the commentator at the Tokyo Olympics his pronunciation is pretty much as I said. But why the matter of the spelling of his name is so important to you is baffling, as it has no relevance to the subject of the discussion. That is petti-fogging.
Jakob has trained from a younger age smarter and more consistently (with altitude trips) for distance races than just about everyone (certainly anyone in the '60s-'80s). If you're really earnestly questioning why he is better at the 3K and up than these faster milers. How many of them have run as much quality work as him for as many years, incorporating altitude stints. No doubt improvements in spikes, tracks and pacemaking isn't hurting him either.
There's of course a difference between 800 speed and kicking ability. Jakob can run a last 200 of 26-27 off of paces fast/slow because he is so aerobically strong and capable of cruising at 3:29-3:31 pace. In the first race you linked he ran the shortest line and looked the sharpest athlete, probably because unlike the others his sharpness isn't as reliant on speedwork/race pace stuff (he does threshold/hills all year long). In the Olympic Final, everyone was stretched out as far as how fast they could go, running lifetime PBs while Jakob was within his abilities and able to close hard (and set his PB).
All this being said, Jakob doesn't profile as a 1:44 guy or capable of running 48 for the 400m. But he's fast in races where the pace is pushed because the 48/1:44 types aren't able to get into a full sprint in a 3:28-3:31 race. So while technically he is a slow, dominant athlete he more than makes up for this in his ability to handle a fast pace. What we haven't seen is if he can take the pace from either the gun or a long way out (a la El G) and win that way. Last year, Tim did him a huge favor by pushing the pace for him. At World Indoors, Tefera keyed off him (though COVID might've factored).
On the other end of the spectrum you have Tim Cheruiyot. While he is a "fast" 1500 guy, he doesn't have a superior kick either. That's why he either runs away from the field or in his best pre-injury races he would slowly ramp up the pace the last lap and then lay it down hard but not explosively fast the last 100 meters (13.1-3 splits). How does he do that while being aerobically weaker than Jakob and many of his rivals? He can handle a super-fast early pace (54pt), regather and rest in the middle and then re-accelerate while the other athletes (including Jakob until last year) wouldn't have an explosive finish left to outkick him.
I wouldn't disagree with that analysis. It captures it well.
Perhaps you could respond to my earlier point, of how does a runner who is slower than the record-holders of the '60's and 70's run far superior times than they did over the longer distance (up to 8 secs) when they also trained to their limits?
Different events?
Perhaps you can explain: How can runners who are much slower (up to 8 scs) over 1500m run far superior times over 800m when all are trained to their limits?
Jakob has trained from a younger age smarter and more consistently (with altitude trips) for distance races than just about everyone (certainly anyone in the '60s-'80s). If you're really earnestly questioning why he is better at the 3K and up than these faster milers. How many of them have run as much quality work as him for as many years, incorporating altitude stints. No doubt improvements in spikes, tracks and pacemaking isn't hurting him either.
All that is true. However I question whether those will be the only factors contributing to superior performances over the 1500/mile. Although we have been discussing Jakob the argument applies to other runners as well, who have shown indifferent capability over the 800 (relative to past champions) and yet outstanding endurance in the longer event. If they are doped - and we must expect some are - it would help explain the up-tick in endurance in such athletes. They will have been able to train harder as well as race harder. Regrettably, today nothing can be taken quite at face value.
And the 1:41 800m runner types are doped too. Surely you cannot be so stupid as to assume that doping only helps one extend one’s speed further. It can help make one faster at short distances too. So if you want to see doping everywhere, you will see it.