Soup to Nuts - Letsrun Train Me

PhysMech wrote:

A third part is technique, and it is actually my favorite. While many consider this part too complicated and risky to address, my approach is really quite simple. Run using only the muscles and motions necessary to get the job done. Nothing else. And do it in the most optimal way you can. ...

How do you approach this?

Lots of strides and form drills? Study yourself on video? Concentrate on relaxing specific things as you run? Lots of practice at race pace?

I'm with you, it's a key part of my coach's outlook. But the tools we use to get there are weight training, drills, bounding, hills, and quite a lot of practice running relaxed at race pace, but not for so long that you lose form...I am very curious about other approaches.

Example:

Consider the spines of runners and how it can move.

It can bend from being straight in all directions as well as swivel. After consideration, bending is probably not necessary to running but some swivel in the pelvis and shoulders is desireable and allowed.

It also bounces through space while running, is not very straight in many runners, and the angle relative to the ground changes in many runners. Can't get rid of the bounce, so it's allowed. Straightness is desired, but very little energy should be used to do this while running, if any at all. Wobble from side to side or front to back (pidgeoning, I call it) is probably not necessary and attempts should probably be made to minimize this.

Then there is defining the angle we want to keep throughout the stride.

So let's see:

ALLOW AND ATTEMPT TO OPTIMIZE

Swivel

Bounce

ELIMINATE

Bending

Angle changes

Curvature

DEFINE AND MAINTAIN

Optimal Angle

Some of these are subject to change, due to interactions with other body motions as we begin to understand them.

Oh yeah, you gotta define what motions are NECESSARY for all the body parts and see if you can do em all at once. Endlessly fascinating.

I agree with you -- very interesting to think about how to maximize our movements both from a performance perspective and an injury prevention perspective.

Very interesting stuff.

I'm working with a local sports medicine clinic to try and develop a regular screening/monitoring program for athletes - preferably something that costs no more than a one-hour physio visit and can be done 2-3x per year, so my club and future coach-ees can afford to use it. (They have great nutritionists too). We have a lot of functional movement and strength tests in there, as weaknesses can often lead to poor form, but were unsure whether technique should be part of this.

I'm thinking it might make a lot of sense to just include a 5min stretch on a treadmill at a good working pace and keeping a video clip from back, front and side; this would let experienced track coaches review and watch out for these things, and give people pointers. The problem here is probably getting consensus on what to look for, once you get beyond the obvious heel-bangers, hand-flappers and leg-rollers!

BTW, I see you ran the Naples half - are you from around there? I'll be in Miami from April 5-9th and Naples/Fort Myers area from 9th to 14th; if we're nearby I'd love to meet up for a run, beer or whatever...

Update:

Well the good new is I have lost 7 lbs in the last 4 weeks, weighing in at 172.4 this morning.

The bad news is that my target was to lose 10 lbs by this date.

I'll keep sawing wood and get there, its just going to take a little longer.

Hope all are having a great day and wishing all a fun week end.

Good work!

It's only to be expected that you'll slow down exponentially as you get closer. It is perfectly possible to train reasonably hard at 172, as that's what I was doing last year.

I would not be surprised or worried if the 'loss rate' came down to one pound per week - a lot of people say that's the most an athlete in training can drop without messing up their training badly.

In 11 days I've now dropped from 167 to 163; now back at last summer's level, but from here on down I expect it to go a bit more slowly too as I'm taking my body somewhere it hasn't gone in 15 years. See if you can catch me ;-)

Bear in mind that when you start eating properly again, (you aren't eating enough for quality training right now and you should be) you will gain 3 or 4 pounds in glycogen plus water.

I know weight can drop significantly after a hard day's training sessions but surely ID is not in a chronically glycogen-depleted or dehydrated state? His training is very consistent on a daily basis.

ID - Nice work. I wouldn't be too concerned about the speed of weight loss any more, just keep the body composition going in the right direction. And I agree, you can probably start thinking about doing some decent running at 172. For me, running over 40 needs to be done with a constant caution, and no warning sign is ever just ignored without consideration like we did sometimes in our 20's.

euro - I live in Orlando and would like to meet as well. And video seems like a great tool to use and taking the 30 second vids from various angles sounds like a great idea. I have used video with someone who was wobbling side to side while sprinting A LOT, showed him his form with video, and he totally shocked me about a week later with his ability to sprint with almost no wobble. It really made my jaw drop how quickly he was able to change that.

Actually, you said 5 minute vids, not 30 seconds. Even better. 50 year old short term memory, even with Acetyl-L-Carnitine, can be lacking at times. :)

Thanks for the encouragement!

So, the plan going forward is to allow my easy pace to drop slowly. I have commenced 8:20's on the treadmill. It doesn't seem like I can run slower than about 7:50's on terra firma, but I'll do my best to keep it slow when I'm supposed to run easy. BTW - I usually run at up to a 6 degree grade on the treadmill at these slower paces so I'm getting some cardio and calorie burn with out the pounding of the faster paces.

I am also going to be switching my schedule around with my longer session in the am and the shorter one in the pm. This will require me to give up the treadmill for the am sessions as my wife works out this time of the day. Anyway, I'm going to be getting some additional gear (running pants, etc.).

Any opinions on quality outdoor running gear for colder weather?

I'm going to add a couple of quality sessions a week depending on my health status. I'll play it by ear and listen to my body. These sessions will not be really strenuous. I'm holding off on the hard stuff until I get a lot more base running under my legs.

Nutrition Question: With the longer session in the am, I presume it is appropriate to have a "hearty" breakfast (and healthy, of course) and that after my pm session a small meal or snack is sufficient?

Ditto the congratulations above! I'd expect your weight loss to slow a bit as you narrow in on your target.

Nutrition sounds right to me. If it's a shorter, easier run (easy 4-5 miler, etc.), I think the main benefit is using the opportunity to get a bit more glycogen back into your muscle cells, so a ~300 calorie snack should probably do it. For now. You'll start getting hungrier as you lose more weight and up your mileage further, but I'd wager you'll be the first to notice when you're waking up at midnight thinking "damn, I want some food." A bit of protein/fat goes a long way to staving off the midnight hungries - handful of almonds or walnuts. Of course, at that time, as JO points out, you'll probably be increasing your total caloric intake anyway to adapt to the amount of training you're doing.

Keep it up - and thanks for the bilateral encouragement. :) You've managed to jump past my mileage already, but in the process, you unknowingly convinced me to go up from ~60 to ~65mpw this week. Still haven't been able to convince myself to run doubles in this crap weather, though.

Impossible Dream wrote:

Any opinions on quality outdoor running gear for colder weather?

SportHill running pants! I have two pairs and they are TWELVE years old and still in great shape. They are really great and keep you warm from 50 to 25 degrees very well. Get the ones with the stirrups.

To your nutrition question: Longer and/or harder workouts are going to require more protein and carbs. And more of the Nutrient Timing principles applied.

After a short easy run, I might just have some Gatorade (86 glycemic index) and some small amount of protein. Pretty much, I'm done doing what I need to do as far as recovery, unless I want to add a little more carbs in addition to my normal eating the next few hours.

My philosophy after and easy workout: Do a bit of the recovery thing, but stay focused on fitness.

After a hard workout, I go into body building mode. 400 calories of dates (102 glycemic index!!!) and some fast acting protein immediately, with water. Follow this up if you can with slower protein, like meats, within the next couple of hours and maybe more additional higher glycemic carbs, but only enough to get the insulin response. Then do the "slow protein trickle", which is maybe a slice of turkey or ham once every couple hours. All these amounts or durations are variable, depending on your experience and judgement.

My philosophy after a hard workout: Do not mess around with it and focus on recovery recovery recovery.

About to head out to

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eg3kFEWmmgY

Race plan is 22 miles starting just under marathon PR (2:59:44) or age group record there (2:57:24, Jorge Ramos). If the pace is increased, it must be maintained to 22 miles, which is where I DNF'd last year. No Rickenbacker causeway for you, pal! DOH!

Then planning to play Lauren's game to the finish. She has a pretty straightforward instructional video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CF1_v8EvcOo

Someone from the Florida Department of Tourism wants me to make some crack about treadmills and palm trees here, but I'll skip that. :D

I'd say wish me luck, but pray for me might be more appropriate.

PhysMech wrote:

SportHill running pants! I have two pairs and they are TWELVE years old and still in great shape. They are really great and keep you warm from 50 to 25 degrees very well. Get the ones with the stirrups.

Ditto.

As a Brit, I must point out that Sporthills are clones of the original Ron Hill Tracksters. Ron is a marathon legend in the UK (record holder, old-style hard man, ad PhD in textile chemistry - singlehandedly invented half the technical running gear we all use now...). I have 2 pairs as well. True historians of the sport go for navy with red piping (the originals...) and definitely the stirrups.

These work as well as tights, but have the advantage of not displaying your 'shrink-wrapped veggies' so much so you won't feel creepy if you pop into a shop or finish a run at kid's soccer practice or whatever.

Ron had to sell the business long ago and his successors keep trying to 'update the designs' (a bit like New Coke, really..). His new firm and life history are here..

Impossible Dream wrote:

Nutrition Question: With the longer session in the am, I presume it is appropriate to have a "hearty" breakfast (and healthy, of course) and that after my pm session a small meal or snack is sufficient?

Yep. You can definitely go for bacon and eggs now if you feel like it!

eurodonkey wrote:

Yep. You can definitely go for bacon and eggs now if you feel like it!

Mmm, hearty breakfast.

But let's adjust that slightly from a saturated fat bomb. ;-) Goal: Good mix of carbohydrates, protein, a modest amount of healthy fats, and micronutrients. This one's coming post hard-workout, so should lean a little more towards the carbs side.

pre-workout: bit of OJ or a banana or some sports drink or whatever stays down well when consumed immediately before workout.

breakfast:

- Big bowl of oatmeal, with 1 cup of mixed berries (strawberries, blueberries, whatever you like), with 1-2T ground flaxseed or a handful of walnuts.

(or combine those two as cereal with mixed berries)

- Still hungry? Throw in the whole wheat toast.

- Coffee, etc., as desired

Rationale: Lots of carbs from whole-grain sources in the oatmeal. Fruit will give some quickly digested sugars, as well as providing a good start on vitamins. Vitamin C in the blueberries facilitates ingestion of the iron from the oatmeal (good for runners). Flaxseed or walnuts adds daily dose of omega-6 fats and goes well with oatmeal and adds some calories to help make the meal more hearty.

Midmorning snack:

- Banana or orange and a small handful of nuts

- Glass of skim milk or soy milk

Rationale: You did a lot more work before breakfast than you did before. You're going to want to continue taking in some carbs and protein, but with a bit more protein:carbs ratio, so I moved the skim milk from breakfast to here (while adding calories back to breakfast with the fruit and nuts). A small amount of healthy fats will also help keep some energy hanging around.

PhysMech wrote:

About to head out to

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eg3kFEWmmgY

Race plan is 22 miles starting just under marathon PR (2:59:44) or age group record there (2:57:24, Jorge Ramos).

Good luck! That looks like an absolutely stunning course - I'd love to do it one year...