Been watching Jess's progression and see what she is doing via her paid training partners Strava data. She's clean.
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I know all this for a fact. wrote:
Lol, meatheads in gyms getting steroids from bikies and other meatheads.
If you're a competitive athlete in Australia, especially in an Olympic year, you're going to get tested numerous times and when you least expect, even by the team doctors leading up to and while at the Olympics.
If you're into, or intending to take PEDs, the last place you would do it is Australia.
Australia protects its athletes and sports stars very well indeed. Even if they tested positive,nobody would hear about it,and the athlete would either keep competing,or switch to another sport. Australia plays the sporting game extremely well.If you think their best athletes arent doping,you better think again. Also Its very easy to get drugs.
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boy george wrote:
why is nobody mentioning Georgia Bell in the same race ran a 4 sec PB? Muir who was in terrible form leading in ran a British record. There was clearly something special going on last nite - whether it was shoes, track, extra oxygen in the air or whatever, its not just Jess that did crazy things. You cant look at her time in isolation.
Britain is today's russia. I think they had 4 women in that race run under 4 minutes,which is just ridiculous.
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jeff tallon wrote:
trollism wrote:
Kipyegon is a mega doper, anyone who comes close is suspicious.
Literally EVERYONE dopes at top leval. Thats just the sport. Actually its most sports. 3.50 isnt possible for a woman,nor is her 8.22 3000 meters indoors she ran earlier this year.
Anyone who holds this position has no connection to top level athletics at all.
I suppose it is a genuine shame that experts such as yourself weren’t around to comment when Ruth Wysocki lowered her lifetime best by about 13 seconds to win the American Trials in 4:00 in 1984, or when Mills lowered his PB by some 50 seconds to win in Tokyo.
Unless something further comes to light, Hull was able to draft her way to the race of her life yesterday. I also contend that, beyond these new advancements in footwear, the wavelight pacing is a phenomenal factor that can’t be understated in these current performances.
Performance is one, not insignificant, indicator of doping in sport. Then you also need to look at the circumstances around the performance and the coaches, management and possible quality of federation involved with the athlete as well.
To date, I haven’t heard a single unfavourable word from anyone with respect to Hull. Contrast that with someone like Katir, for whom many of his competitors and even countrymen were scoffing at once the cameras were switched off.
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Yorkshire Fell wrote:
boy george wrote:
why is nobody mentioning Georgia Bell in the same race ran a 4 sec PB? Muir who was in terrible form leading in ran a British record. There was clearly something special going on last nite - whether it was shoes, track, extra oxygen in the air or whatever, its not just Jess that did crazy things. You cant look at her time in isolation.
This is what I’m thinking. Many other athletes PB’d - long standing athletes like Linden Hall and Laura Muir. Athletes like Georgia (who’d never gone below 4 knocking 4 seconds off her PB). Then we also have the men’s 800m
There’s clearly something going on with the track - and that coupled with athletes hitting their peak for the Olympics we are seeing crazy times.
Another case in point, Sarah Healy, going 3:57 in her only other sub-4 in her life. Not everyone ran super fast, though, as Ciara Mageean, the European Champion, was, was well off her lifetime best.
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ZenDuck123 wrote:
If you actually watch the race and focus just on Hull you will see:
1. She ran the shortest distance possible. A straight line from her starting position to the inside of lane 1 the whole way.
2. Paced perfectly and smoothe. She never had to slow down, chop her steps, nor speed up.
3. No traffic, no stress whatsoever. Nobody who might cut her off or trip her up.
4. She was right on the heels of Kipyegon with no one else nearby from 100 meters in to 1300. Then only a second behind the last 200. She never had to lead.
I have watched 100's of races over the decades and it is extremely rare to be gifted a perfect pacer as Kipyegon was for Hull.
Also, that track has a history of world records set on it including Kipyegon's 1500 world record last year.
Kipyegon set the 5,000m WR there last year, which Ingebrigtsen and Girma followed up with all-time performances to make it a trifecta for the distance races.
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I watched that meet yesterday and have a few observations:
in the 800m and 1500w the rabbits did a really good job, almost perfect. Also there are the silly lights. All that made it possible to maintain the right pace in a very steady way. No one had to run outside (Except very end of 800m) which equals extra distance and wastes energy, no one had to do anything tactical. They were time trials in which nearly the whole field got a PB.
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If she was going to make a drug fueled big improvement she would have needed to be really hitting the PED's hard all year. Surely it would be difficult to get around the testers, or at least she would have one or two missed tests under her belt.
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Salvitore Stitchmo wrote:
interesting graph wrote:
2019 - 4:01.80
2020 - 4:00.42
2021 - 3:58.81
2022- 3:59.31
2023 - 3:57.29
2024 (so far) - 3:50.83
How often do deeply experienced athletes take 7 seconds off their 1500 PR in one year at the age of 27?
Nike athlete. Who is her coach, and where is she based?
So in the interests of being consistent - this is really "eye opening". Not a direct accusation but the same questions are at play with certain others that have been discussed ad nauseum on the messageboard.
For me my simple question is, how is it possible she has been soooo far off her potential over the last 3-4 seasons, especially as she been exposed to really high level racing with wavelight and of course, modern product? It's that simple?
Okay so she's improved her 3000m - yeah, by almost the same amount as she just did her 1500m time - but this just doesn't add up right now. Put it this way, I don't really see much difference in Mohamed Katir going from 3.36 to 3.28 in a season and it's actually incredibly similar when you then look at the corresponding level that has been attained relative to the WR.
It's even so incredibly similar down to Katir beginning 2021 with a 3.36.59 PR, taking a 3 second bite out of it to 3.33.62 and then the monumental jump to 3.28.76. Hull began this season at 3.57.29, takes a slightly smaller bite out of it at 3.55.97 and then the monumental jump to 3.50.83?
People will point to Hiltz going from 3.59 to 3.55 as some kind of comparison (and others) but really it's not. When you are approaching the limits of your sexes all-time potential (currently sits at 3.49.04) every second gets infinitely tougher.
I just dunno man, not sure what to believe anymore. But all I'll say is that if we were so suspicious over a dark skinned Spanish male of Moroccan descent who did one thing, we have to be equally suspicious over a white blonde Australian female who has basically done the exact same thing, just on the womans side.
Why bring race and/or ethnicity into this?
Are the comparisons really valid? A woman breaking 3:55 is the equivalent of what, a man breaking 3:30? (15 men have run sub-3:30, 15 women have run 3:55.0 or faster).
Katir was running six+ seconds slower than anything worth writing home about. Hull was already in the neighbourhood. Her improvement, whilst a big personal best, wasn't otherworldly like Katir's was from 3:36 to relevancy.
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Finnished at 344 wrote:
Yorkshire Fell wrote:
This is what I’m thinking. Many other athletes PB’d - long standing athletes like Linden Hall and Laura Muir. Athletes like Georgia (who’d never gone below 4 knocking 4 seconds off her PB). Then we also have the men’s 800m
There’s clearly something going on with the track - and that coupled with athletes hitting their peak for the Olympics we are seeing crazy times.
Another case in point, Sarah Healy, going 3:57 in her only other sub-4 in her life. Not everyone ran super fast, though, as Ciara Mageean, the European Champion, was, was well off her lifetime best.
Yes I was surprised at Ciara - she has rivalled Laura Muir in the past and she should also be peaking.
Many PBs in that race though - some by 3/4 seconds. It’s as though the few that didn’t PB had something else going on or are tired/ not in good form
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Returned_Runner wrote:
If she was going to make a drug fueled big improvement she would have needed to be really hitting the PED's hard all year. Surely it would be difficult to get around the testers, or at least she would have one or two missed tests under her belt.
Which we'd never truly know until an athlete missed their third, violating anti-doping rules (unless the athlete self-admitted to missing tests).
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tweetybird wrote:
Been watching Jess's progression and see what she is doing via her paid training partners Strava data. She's clean.
There are obviously things Strava doesn't tell you.
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Left Said Fred wrote:
jeff tallon wrote:
Literally EVERYONE dopes at top leval. Thats just the sport. Actually its most sports. 3.50 isnt possible for a woman,nor is her 8.22 3000 meters indoors she ran earlier this year.
Anyone who holds this position has no connection to top level athletics at all.
I suppose it is a genuine shame that experts such as yourself weren’t around to comment when Ruth Wysocki lowered her lifetime best by about 13 seconds to win the American Trials in 4:00 in 1984, or when Mills lowered his PB by some 50 seconds to win in Tokyo.
Unless something further comes to light, Hull was able to draft her way to the race of her life yesterday. I also contend that, beyond these new advancements in footwear, the wavelight pacing is a phenomenal factor that can’t be understated in these current performances.
Performance is one, not insignificant, indicator of doping in sport. Then you also need to look at the circumstances around the performance and the coaches, management and possible quality of federation involved with the athlete as well.
To date, I haven’t heard a single unfavourable word from anyone with respect to Hull. Contrast that with someone like Katir, for whom many of his competitors and even countrymen were scoffing at once the cameras were switched off.
You can't compare the doping environment in distance running in 1964 - which had yet to develop - to what it is today. Drugs have been as much a progression as everything else in the sport - and not a timeless constant.
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Returned_Runner wrote:
If she was going to make a drug fueled big improvement she would have needed to be really hitting the PED's hard all year. Surely it would be difficult to get around the testers, or at least she would have one or two missed tests under her belt.
No, it wouldn't be difficult to get around the testers. Testing results in a very small percentage of positives - 1% - but confidential athlete surveys have shown doping is vastly higher than that. For anyone who knows what they are doing it is really HARD to get caught.
This post was edited 5 minutes after it was posted.62 -
Johns Davidsons wrote:
Salvitore Stitchmo wrote:
So in the interests of being consistent - this is really "eye opening". Not a direct accusation but the same questions are at play with certain others that have been discussed ad nauseum on the messageboard.
For me my simple question is, how is it possible she has been soooo far off her potential over the last 3-4 seasons, especially as she been exposed to really high level racing with wavelight and of course, modern product? It's that simple?
Okay so she's improved her 3000m - yeah, by almost the same amount as she just did her 1500m time - but this just doesn't add up right now. Put it this way, I don't really see much difference in Mohamed Katir going from 3.36 to 3.28 in a season and it's actually incredibly similar when you then look at the corresponding level that has been attained relative to the WR.
It's even so incredibly similar down to Katir beginning 2021 with a 3.36.59 PR, taking a 3 second bite out of it to 3.33.62 and then the monumental jump to 3.28.76. Hull began this season at 3.57.29, takes a slightly smaller bite out of it at 3.55.97 and then the monumental jump to 3.50.83?
People will point to Hiltz going from 3.59 to 3.55 as some kind of comparison (and others) but really it's not. When you are approaching the limits of your sexes all-time potential (currently sits at 3.49.04) every second gets infinitely tougher.
I just dunno man, not sure what to believe anymore. But all I'll say is that if we were so suspicious over a dark skinned Spanish male of Moroccan descent who did one thing, we have to be equally suspicious over a white blonde Australian female who has basically done the exact same thing, just on the womans side.
Why bring race and/or ethnicity into this?
Are the comparisons really valid? A woman breaking 3:55 is the equivalent of what, a man breaking 3:30? (15 men have run sub-3:30, 15 women have run 3:55.0 or faster).
Katir was running six+ seconds slower than anything worth writing home about. Hull was already in the neighbourhood. Her improvement, whilst a big personal best, wasn't otherworldly like Katir's was from 3:36 to relevancy.
Her performance is "otherworldly". It has put her in the same company as the doped Chinese and Dibaba, from being nowhere near that.
Also, to take your point about 3:55 being akin to 3:30 for a man, she has effectively run about 3:26.
This post was edited 2 minutes after it was posted.82 -
ZenDuck123 wrote:
If you actually watch the race and focus just on Hull you will see:
1. She ran the shortest distance possible. A straight line from her starting position to the inside of lane 1 the whole way.
2. Paced perfectly and smoothe. She never had to slow down, chop her steps, nor speed up.
3. No traffic, no stress whatsoever. Nobody who might cut her off or trip her up.
4. She was right on the heels of Kipyegon with no one else nearby from 100 meters in to 1300. Then only a second behind the last 200. She never had to lead.
I have watched 100's of races over the decades and it is extremely rare to be gifted a perfect pacer as Kipyegon was for Hull.
Also, that track has a history of world records set on it including Kipyegon's 1500 world record last year.
Good points. Just to add this. Conceivably Hull may have legally run a bit less than 1500m since the line of running for track measurement/certification is 0.3m out from the rail/kerb/cones on the inside of lane 1.
22 -
Left Said Fred wrote:
jeff tallon wrote:
Literally EVERYONE dopes at top leval. Thats just the sport. Actually its most sports. 3.50 isnt possible for a woman,nor is her 8.22 3000 meters indoors she ran earlier this year.
To date, I haven’t heard a single unfavourable word from anyone with respect to Hull. Contrast that with someone like Katir, for whom many of his competitors and even countrymen were scoffing at once the cameras were switched off.
Yeah Jessica is a blonde woman and Katir is an arab guy. No wonder one is treates lile a goddess and the other one like sh-t.
You now understand racism.
54 -
Armstronglivs wrote:
Johns Davidsons wrote:
Why bring race and/or ethnicity into this?
Are the comparisons really valid? A woman breaking 3:55 is the equivalent of what, a man breaking 3:30? (15 men have run sub-3:30, 15 women have run 3:55.0 or faster).
Katir was running six+ seconds slower than anything worth writing home about. Hull was already in the neighbourhood. Her improvement, whilst a big personal best, wasn't otherworldly like Katir's was from 3:36 to relevancy.
Her performance is "otherworldly". It has put her in the same company as the doped Chinese and Dibaba, from being nowhere near that.
Also, to take your point about 3:55 being akin to 3:30 for a man, she has effectively run about 3:26.
Hate to be agreeing with Armstronglivs but he's 100% right here. Look at the list of sub-3:53 women:
Kipyegon (Kenyan during the height of Kenyan doping busts)
Dibaba (coach a known supplier)
Yunxia (Ma's Army)
Hull (former NOP, now trains alone)
Bo (Ma's Army)
Yinglai (Ma's Army)
Junxia (Ma's Army)
Hassan (former NOP, now trains alone)
Kazankina (Soviet bloc)
Heck, even the 3:53s and 3:54s are suspicious. Everyone except Muir is either Ethiopian, Ma's Army, Soviet Bloc, or Shelby Houlihan. I'm willing to believe the East Africans have some amazing genetics, and Muir has been consistent at a high level for a very long time, so I could believe there are some clean times in that group. But the sub-3:53 list is pretty damning evidence.
121 -
letsrunners are racist wrote:
Left Said Fred wrote:
To date, I haven’t heard a single unfavourable word from anyone with respect to Hull. Contrast that with someone like Katir, for whom many of his competitors and even countrymen were scoffing at once the cameras were switched off.
Yeah Jessica is a blonde woman and Katir is an arab guy. No wonder one is treates lile a goddess and the other one like sh-t.
You now understand racism.
Racism is a very real and vile thing and it is certainly a factor when it comes to some doping accusations. But that isn’t influencing what’s been said in this case. Everyone derided Katir, for example, however not Mechaal.
13 -
Left Said Fred wrote:
jeff tallon wrote:
Literally EVERYONE dopes at top leval. Thats just the sport. Actually its most sports. 3.50 isnt possible for a woman,nor is her 8.22 3000 meters indoors she ran earlier this year.
Anyone who holds this position has no connection to top level athletics at all.
I suppose it is a genuine shame that experts such as yourself weren’t around to comment when Ruth Wysocki lowered her lifetime best by about 13 seconds to win the American Trials in 4:00 in 1984, or when Mills lowered his PB by some 50 seconds to win in Tokyo.
Unless something further comes to light, Hull was able to draft her way to the race of her life yesterday. I also contend that, beyond these new advancements in footwear, the wavelight pacing is a phenomenal factor that can’t be understated in these current performances.
Performance is one, not insignificant, indicator of doping in sport. Then you also need to look at the circumstances around the performance and the coaches, management and possible quality of federation involved with the athlete as well.
To date, I haven’t heard a single unfavourable word from anyone with respect to Hull. Contrast that with someone like Katir, for whom many of his competitors and even countrymen were scoffing at once the cameras were switched off.
Just because you personally haven't heard it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I can very much assure you people who are in the know don't speak particularly favorably of her. Not to mention the general view that the inside of women's distance running is a bit more catty than what the public sees.
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