Isn't "Event Specificity" More Important Than "VO2max" And "LT" Zones And All That?

What country are you from, Coach? (Just curious.)

I was refering to the importance of maintaining a high vo2 max for marathon runners, with the implication that this is necessary to maintain the highest level of fitness.

By maintaining maximum aerobic capacity in this way, a marathon runner can do more effective marathon pace work.

It is also worth pointing out that Renato Canova believes that the fastest hard endurance workouts should be done 10% faster than marathon pace.

For the top marathon runners, this is approximately 10k pace.

ovaltine?

I'm more of a coffee man myself.

I appreciate your detailed reply S. Canaday, but I'm still not sure about doing runs at faster than threshold in the month (or six weeks) before a marathon. My biggest concern is what "sjm1368" brings up a couple of posts after your reply with regards to fuel efficiency. I know you acknowledge this point when you say that you train to store more glycogen by doing long runs finishing with marathon effort, but is this enough to counter the "damage" done by running sessions that burn glycogen fast and dirty? Perhaps by keeping these faster intervals shorter in distance (eg. Canova's short hills or 200s at 5k pace and 400s at 10k pace) and avoiding any buildup of lactic acid you could prevent this while still keeping your legs feeling light and quick?

Also, you suggest that in the Russian study the athletes were running too quickly over 20k to be able to race well at the marathon distance. Doesn't this contradict you earlier points though. If you are doing 800s at 5k pace and 1600s at 10k pace (workouts faster than 20k pace) and long runs with marathon pace at the end (slower than 20k pace) this seems like a perfect formula to prepare runners for a PR over 20k.

I find it interesting to look at Renato's "GENERAL PROGRAM FOR THE LAST 9 WEEKS OF PREPARATION"

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=308092&page=1

In that final 9 weeks here are the only sessions that seem to include runs at faster than threshold (some of them, like the 1 minute runs during the long run, might actually be at threshold rather than over):

1st Week

Thu

1 hr easy + 10 x 100m sprint uphill (max speed)

Fri

35 - 38k with variations

(15k easy + 5k alternating 1min fast / 1min slow +

10k marathon-pace + 2-5k easy + 3k max intensity (may be uphill also)

(Extensive-intensive long running)

2nd Week

Tue

50min easy + 10 x 100m sprint uphill (max speed)

3rd Week

Tue

50min easy + 10 x 100m sprint uphill (max speed)

4th Week

Tue

35-40k with variations (15k easy + 5k alternating 1min fast / 1min slow + 10k at marathon pace + 2-5k easy + 3-5k max intensity (uphill also)

(Extensive - Intensive long running)

Fri

50min easy + 10 x 100m sprint uphill (max speed)

6th Week

Mon

1 hr easy + 10 x 100m sprint uphill (max speed)

7th Week

Wed

10min warm-up

34k progressive running

(10k at 3’25” / 3’20” + 10k at 3’15” + 10k at 3’12” + 4k max)

(Specific Long Marathon Endurance)

Sat

1 hr + 12 x 100m sprint uphill (max speed)

1 hr easy

9th Week

Mon

1 hr 10min / 1 hr 20min fartlek with

15 x 1min fast recovery 1min 30s easy

Tue

1 hr easy

45min + 10 x 100m sprint uphill (max speed)

Other than the long runs that end with 3-5k at max intensity everything else seems to be pretty alactic in nature. What do you think S. Canaday? Do you think that by doing workouts such as RC suggests you would get the benefits that you are discussing while avoiding the tendency to burn glycogen inefficiently? Of course, if Renato want to chime in here that would be welcome as well. Thanks again for sharing your ideas SC!

I completely agree Coach Mook. You shouldn't "just sit back and get lectured at". I wasn't suggesting that at all. It was more the way that you were phrasing things in you posts that suggested that you didn't know who jtupper was. I thought it would just make the discussion more meaningful for you if you knew this information. Sorry to have presumed wrong and thanks for your interesting posts.

sjm1368 wrote:

The reason those athletes failed when they did VO2max type work in the weeks leading up the marathon is that they taught there body to use fuel at a more rapid rate basically.

Are you suggesting that even when these runners slow to marathon pace, their bodies are still burning fuel at the accelerated rate "learned" while doing faster paced workouts? I would think that faster paced training would increase the efficiency of the fuel burning process, but not really jack up that rate when the pace slowed. If you are right about this, it is certainly news to me. Can anyone else corroborate?

I'm from the USA, I would love to sit down and discuss training philosophy and physiology with Dainels. The hard part about that with me is his knowlege base it much wider than mine. I would either need all my books or lots of clarification to keep up with him. lol.

There is a missing piece in this marathon training discussion as glycogen stores start to run out. If I remember right, Noakes says that you can't store enough in the liver or consume enough during the race to effectivley use it all.

Therefore the runner needs another source for fuel. That source would have to be fat, specifally Triglyceride. If you do not teach your body how to burn this fuel at high intensities when glycogen stores run low your intensity will no doubt drop.

How do you do this? You would have to find a way to train with exhausted Glycogen supplies. Doing the second half a of a long run at MP pace my help but unless you depleted your stores that may not work.

Maybe faster Doing faster pace stuff after a long run. Since you probably can't do this very often maybe it is something you do sparingly, teach yourself from races, and/or genetics. hmmm...

you do know ... wrote:

I completely agree Coach Mook. You shouldn't "just sit back and get lectured at". I wasn't suggesting that at all. It was more the way that you were phrasing things in you posts that suggested that you didn't know who jtupper was. I thought it would just make the discussion more meaningful for you if you knew this information. Sorry to have presumed wrong and thanks for your interesting posts.

You have a point Coach Mook. Daniels completely ran Ken Martin into the ground, mostly because Daniels recommended tempo paces that were too fast. JD couldn't explain why Martin would go flat for months on end, although any experienced coach could have nipped it at the bud before it ever happened.

Are you suggesting that even when these runners slow to marathon pace, their bodies are still burning fuel at the accelerated rate "learned" while doing faster paced workouts? I would think that faster paced training would increase the efficiency of the fuel burning process, but not really jack up that rate when the pace slowed. If you are right about this, it is certainly news to me. Can anyone else corroborate?

I'm suggesting that it alters your fuel consumption rate and distribution.

I'll keep it simplistic. We'll ignore protein and lactate in this process for now.

You have a finite amount of glycogen stored in your body. You have enough fat to last a freaking long time.

Once you start running low on Glycogen, more and more fat has to be used. When fat use increases, energy output decreases per unit time. I.e. you've got to slow down.

I don't have the numbers in front of me b/c I've lent out my book/notes with them to a friend, but the basic idea is this:

You want to increase the amount of fat that is contributing at your goal marathon pace.

So if runner A can run 5:30 pace w/ the average distribution of 80%glyc/20%fat and this percentage/pace makes it where he comes to the finish line right when his glyc. supplies are crap. Now, if we take that same runner and through training make it where at 5:30 pace he's burning 77%glyc/23%fat and he has the same glycogen capacity, then it's obvious that he can now run faster because if he ran at 5:30 pace he wouldn't exhaust his stores at the finish line. So now our runner can run at 5:25 pace and have his stores exhausted at the finish line. So he ran a faster marathon.

It's simplistic, but it gets the point across I think.

Now on to faster paced intervals...

When you do what most people call VO2max type intervals your altering fuel consumption rates. At those paces your body knows it doesn't have to worry about running out of energy supply. It just needs to get as much energy as it can before acidosis and other feedback systems tell the energy systems to start "shutting down."

And to answer someone's question, it effects the ENTIRE speed continum.

To illustrate this point, you can clearly see it in lactate measurements. Do a lot of endurance work and generally the amount of lactate at EVERY speed will decrease. Do a lot of interval/fast stuff and the amount of lactate at EVERY speed will increase. Depending on the test you use, it's easy to see. That's why, as a marathoner, you generally use a test periodically to try and get the athlete to be able to cruise at marathon pace at around 1.8-2.0mmol, then have enough anaerobic capacity to be able to crank it up decently high at the end of the test with a fast 1000m or something similar.

I hope that made sense.

Passwords -- I'd really be interesed in the data you have regarding Ken's threshold pace. I just looked up the many times I tested Ken and the fastest threshold pace I can find is 4:49/mile and he ran NY City marathon at 4:57 pace. I think most people would consider threshold pace more than 9 sec per mile faster than marathon pace. I also don't remember threshold sessions in excess of 6 miles total.

I don't have any knowledge of you running Martin into the ground but I do agree that your tempo runs were paced faster than I liked them. That was the first thing that turned me off about your system. When I had a 5k VDOT of 66 and did that kind of workout I liked the longer threshold runs of 8-12 miles and to start out slower and finish harder. Say 7 min paces and drop 10-12 sec each mile. Or if I was doing a 12 I would start at 7:30. Running the last 2 miles especially the last mile very hard at about 5:30 pace. yet your paces from the book indicate that I should have ran 5:35 to 5:45 for an entire 8 mile run to do a proper threshold. Even at 5:45 I would have been going close to pretty close to all out and got above what I felt was my threshold pretty quickly.

I can note that the further the distance the worse my Vdot got.

First off, JD's "distance running formula" is probably my favorite book of all time. So to defend it, I'd say not to follow the charts exactly...of course some days your threshold isn't going to be exactly what it is on other days. Of course you may not follow the VDOT chart (probably most people do not). So it is a rough guide of what paces/intensity to workout at. You have to follow your own body's efforts and adjust the workouts to fit your own talents/current training conditions.

Now, to talk about the post above in regards to RC's marathon program....yes it is very specific, hovering right around marathon to half marathon pace on many of the workouts. He does have 100m fast, and he does have that "fartlek" workout of 1min on, etc....which could be done close to V02max pace. Not a lot of volume though....no 5 by 1 mile at 10k pace.

In regards to fuel efficiency....I don't think 2-3 V02max workouts in the last month leading up to a marathon are going to cause that much "damage." I don't know that much about the glycogen burning process, but it seems like as long as you aren't developing too much lactic acid you should be fine. Again, V02max workouts should not be a priority before the long runs and tempos....but I do like to include them. I'm not talking about killer 5k type of V02max workouts either. Some 800s at around current 5k pace, or some 1600s at around current 10k pace are only challenging when your legs are tired from running all the mileage leading up to a marathon. The heart rate only needs to get up around 92-94% of maximum. So I'd almost even call these "pre-V02max workouts" as they aren't as intense as say 5 by 1 mile at 5k goal pace...which may be considered a more traditional V02max workout.

For the Russians racing 20k, is a little too slow than these V02max sessions....its closer to a marathon pace. You get too specific with the demands on the muscle fibers and perhaps they tire out from the constant "steady-fast pace." I don't know, maybe they raced too many times?...thats what I was refering to. Think of some of the Kimbia guys last year when they were doing all of these long distance runs at around marathon pace....they tend to get too carried away with it...its too easy to leave your marathon race out on the roads in a training workout. The result was sub-par race performances.

Finally, the type of runner doing the training influences what workouts to do. Those with a lot of "speed reserve" only need endurance, while those that already have killer endurance (and fuel storage/utilization) may just need some faster turn-over and a little boost in current V02max to capitalize on their optimal marathon condition.

For what it's worth...

Sage- There are no absolute correct answers to the training puzzle. If doing 3 VO2max workouts during the final month for the marathon fits into your training model and it proves to work for you, then it inherently can't be wrong.

On the other hand, even doing 3 so called VO2max workouts would be detrimental or at least of little to no use in the model of the marathon I suscribe to. Why? Partly because it's what makes sense in my head. I've got a model for each event and in the marathon, workouts like that in the last month would be counter to that model. Secondly, from my own little experiments in seeing how much just doing a couple weeks of "Vo2max" or sub VO2max workouts tend to change the lactate profile and thus to the best of my knowledge the fuel consumption picture.

On threshold/tempo paces- I think if you look at JD's V-dot chart as a guide and not something set in stone it is of great benefit. If you look at it as the be all end all to paces then your looking for trouble. The threshold levels can be off quiet significantly depending on the athletes physiological makeup and age. For High schoolers, the V-dot threshold level is normally way too fast compared to their actual one. Most likely this is due to their relatively limited amount of training background.

Without consulting Ken Martin, looking at his logs, or asking Jack about Ken's training, how can anyone assume that Ken was doing tempos too fast or training wrong at all?

Many things can happen which lead to a subpar marathon performance, many of which are beyond a coach's control. The race is much harder to prepare for and execute than a 5k, for example.

Coach Mook wrote:

Therefore the runner needs another source for fuel. That source would have to be fat, specifally Triglyceride. If you do not teach your body how to burn this fuel at high intensities when glycogen stores run low your intensity will no doubt drop.

How do you do this? You would have to find a way to train with exhausted Glycogen supplies. Doing the second half a of a long run at MP pace my help but unless you depleted your stores that may not work.

Maybe faster Doing faster pace stuff after a long run. Since you probably can't do this very often maybe it is something you do sparingly, teach yourself from races, and/or genetics. hmmm...

Fats are always available as a fuel source. They will contribute energy to a run of any decent length no matter what the pace. The problem with fat is the molecule is so large that it takes a relatively long time to break down. That is why fats cannot be the primary fuel source for high intensity runs. They do, however, contribute to the energy demands of these runs.

Because of their abundance in the body, fats are the preferred fuel source. Their molecular complexity, however, allows them to be a primary energy source only for modestly paced activities.

So, you do not have to "teach your body how to burn this fuel at high intensities." That is already taking place. Though perhaps you could improve the efficiency (oops, there's that word again!) of the fat-to-energy conversion, though I'm not sure about that. And if you're going to "train with exhausted Glycogen supplies," then your intensity will have to drop. A glycogen depleted body simply cannot maintain a high intensity activity. You simply cannot teach the body to rely exclusively on fats for high intensity running.

bad connection,

thanks for your comments.

I agree with what you said about using JD's charts/tables as a guide.

Since I haven't done any lactate tests/profiles in the lab with marathon runners I really do not know what I am talking about when it comes to how V02max workouts may negatively affect marathon racing performance. I agree with you that it is probably risky....to do some V02max work in the last month- as you probably have more to lose than gain in terms of your marathon condition.

Tinman wrote:

Without consulting Ken Martin, looking at his logs, or asking Jack about Ken's training, how can anyone assume that Ken was doing tempos too fast or training wrong at all?

Many things can happen which lead to a subpar marathon performance, many of which are beyond a coach's control. The race is much harder to prepare for and execute than a 5k, for example.

Not retired yet? Here you are once again. It smells good and you come back with the hope that if you are side by side with the best you are considered one of them. I see you want to avoid discussion. By the way how do you know that Password doesn't consult Ken's logs?

sjm1368 wrote:

I'm suggesting that it alters your fuel consumption rate and distribution...

Thanks for your comprehensive reply. Let me make sure I understand what you are saying.

Faster (above MP) running will skew your substrate consumption profile toward more glycogen and less fat -- for example, 80/20 vs 77/23. When a runner returns to MP running after some faster workouts, energy consumption continues at the higher glycogen rate (80/20) instead of returning to a more fat friendly ratio (77/23) that the runner may have enjoyed before the faster paced training.

Am I getting this right?

I guess it is partly symantics again. I used the term high intensities for marathon running when clearly you could argue abd I would that it is not run at a very high intensity. So you are right when you said "A glycogen depleted body simply cannot maintain a high intensity activity."

It also takes different catalysts to burn fat. You can teach the body to burn more effective just like through training you teach your body to burn carbs more effectively.

Improving the effiency is exactly what I was talking about. I never said that fats completly ran out. Once the glucose is used up high intensity performace does cease to exist.

Your marathon pace intensity may not have to drop with exhausted Glycogen supplies. You could still run at a MP intensity using primarily fat stores for energy. You just would not be able to run as far a distance.

It would be nice to hear of any training ideas that Coach K has on any of the topics that have been brought up on this thread rather than just trying to "knock" or "fix" other posts.