I agree that nobody cares about polls, but they do give some information. In the case of trans stuff, there's a pretty big gap between what many people (especially women) think and feel and what they are willing to say publicly. Sometimes polls capture this stuff.
The real issue is that people are less likely to take a stand if they think they're alone or hold the minority opinion. And, people are less likely to have an informed opinion of they do not hear and think about the issue from multiple competing perspectives. Counter arguments to trans inclusion are almost always suppressed or dismissed as hateful and transphobic.
Finally, people have a pretty good "spidey sense" of what the moral tripwires are. They don't want to be called hateful or have their jobs threatened, even if they're uncomfortable with what is happening. This is how totalitarianism works. People are guilt-tripped or coerced into standing by while bad things happen. They doubt their own sense of reality or agree to tell lies to get by in the day to day.
Gassy Diploma means that you can say whatever you want using however strained and elaborate conspiratorial explanations for which there is no practical way to verify.
Nice thing is it doesn’t actually matter because all that matters is what *is*. What is is what people as a whole want. Gassies can continue to think it’s because people are afraid in the freest country in the world if it helps them sleep better.
Gassy Diploma means that you can say whatever you want using however strained and elaborate conspiratorial explanations for which there is no practical way to verify.
What is is what people as a whole want.
Oh quickle reported :-(. In that case, your rambling, nonsensical post makes me fear for your health and displays cerebral function consistent with sudden lack of arterial flow to the organic matter which, presumably, resides within your skull.
Gassy Diploma means that you can say whatever you want using however strained and elaborate conspiratorial explanations for which there is no practical way to verify.
What is is what people as a whole want.
Oh quickle reported :-(. In that case, your rambling, nonsensical post makes me fear for your health and displays cerebral function consistent with sudden lack of arterial flow to the organic matter which, presumably, resides within your skull.
Honestly, nearly all of quickle's posts are reportable because they're ad hominem attacks and don't further the discussion. Yet he reports anybody who engages in behaviors that don't even approach his level of hostility and abuse.
On the grounds of free speech, I just ignore him. I don't repond at at; I just occasionally encourage other people to ignore him. He's like the KKK marching through Skokie, IL in the '70s. I accept his right to express himself, but the most effective strategy is to deprive him of attention. I'm making an exception here in order to encourage others to give the silent treatment.
Oh quickle reported :-(. In that case, your rambling, nonsensical post makes me fear for your health and displays cerebral function consistent with sudden lack of arterial flow to the organic matter which, presumably, resides within your skull.
Honestly, nearly all of quickle's posts are reportable because they're ad hominem attacks and don't further the discussion. Yet he reports anybody who engages in behaviors that don't even approach his level of hostility and abuse.
On the grounds of free speech, I just ignore him. I don't repond at at; I just occasionally encourage other people to ignore him. He's like the KKK marching through Skokie, IL in the '70s. I accept his right to express himself, but the most effective strategy is to deprive him of attention. I'm making an exception here in order to encourage others to give the silent treatment.
Ha ha ha ha hah, there goes G. Diploma again, talking to me in third person while avowing the opposite. Gassy true to its diploma is a ball of contradictions that keeps making an exception all the time.
The minority opinion? The opinion to exclude trans athletes from women's / girls' sports is the clear majority. So the "minority opinion" here must be that of women / girls who support their trans friends. They are silenced by people who call themselves "defenders of women."
You misunderstood what I wrote. What I've been saying (and RunRagged has been saying) is that most women and girls are uncomfortable sharing private spaces and competing with males. They mistakenly think that they have the minority opinion, so they are reluctant to speak up. Polls can be helpful when they reveal the discrepancy between what people think the majority opinion is and what it actually is.
Girls are being bullied into pretending they like it.
You misunderstood what I wrote. What I've been saying (and RunRagged has been saying) is that most women and girls are uncomfortable sharing private spaces and competing with males. They mistakenly think that they have the minority opinion, so they are reluctant to speak up. Polls can be helpful when they reveal the discrepancy between what people think the majority opinion is and what it actually is.
Even if that is true (*), there is no reason to believe that "male dominated institutions' are the obstacle to your (or her) cause. Men are overwhelmingly in favor of your position. And they are consistently more supportive of your positions than women.
Unless she is suggesting that those men are lying in the opinion polls and they are actually in favor of trans inclusion, her argument makes absolutely no sense.
JAHJ: the issue under debate isn't "trans inclusion." No one is arguing that people who have, or claim to have, a trans or other special gender identity should be excluded from sports. The issue under debate is solely whether male athletes should be allowed to compete in the female category.
As for your other point: are you seriously trying to suggest that the organizations that make the rules and regulations for sports - and which in the past 20 or so years decided to open up the female category to males who claim special identities - are not male-dominated institutions?
If that's the case, then please show your evidence.
In an effort to find out how and why it's come to pass that the female category of sport got opened up to male athletes who claim to have special gender identities, I've looked at quite a few of the rule-making bodies in sports pretty carefully.
What I've found is that whether they are world governing bodies that hold sway internationally and even globally (like the IOC, World Athletics, FINA/World Aquatics, FIFA, UCI, ICC, and Little League), or they're rule-making organizations that have national reach (like USATF, USA Swimming, UK Athletics, British Cycling, Athletics South Africa, the USA's NCAA, NAIA, NBA, MLB, NHL), or they're sports governing bodies that have a more narrow scope (like the 50 different state organizations that set the rules for interscholastic sports below the college/uni level in each of the US states) - one thing that these organizations have in common is that they are all male-dominated.
They are male-dominated in the sense that men vastly outnumber women in terms of who belongs to, votes in, works for and runs these orgs.
Moreover, they are male-dominated in the sense that most of the high-up positions with the most power within these orgs are held by men. This means men are in the driver's seat when it comes to deciding the rules and regulations for the sports and sports competitions these organizations are in charge of - including setting the eligiblity criteria for participation in the female category.
The organization that sets the rules and regulations for school sports and interscholastic sports competition in Connecticut is CIAC, the Connecticut Interschlolastic Athletic Conference, is a case in point.
CIAC is a private, nonprofit organization founded in 1921 by a group of male high school principals interested in protecting and promoting the interests of student-athletes in CT - who at the time were all male. Today, virtually all public and parochial high schools in Connecticut are dues-paying members of the CIAC.
Although CIAC is a private, nonprofit corporation that is not subject to Title IX or the federal oversight laws like the FOIA, pretty much all the bodies that are in charge of public and private education in Connecticut such as all the public school boards have delegated their legal authority to CIAC to oversee and create the rules and regulations for high school athletics in the state. From the CIAC's handbooks and other documents:
CIAC determines athletic eligibility; makes rules for athletic competition, including safety and health rules; and runs state boys' and girls' tournaments and controls state championships for various sports.
State law does not require CIAC to report to the Connecticut General Assembly or any other government body in Connecticut. Neither the state legislature nor any governmental agency oversees the organization.
CIAC is entirely self-governing, answering to an internally elected board composed of member school representatives who uphold a constitution and by-laws and assisted by a paid staff.
The representatives to CIAC are all either school principals or principal-adjacent:
"The principal [of each member school] shall be the sole CIAC representative of his/her school and shall have one vote. If unable to attend a meeting... he/she may designate in writing that the assistant principal or other building administrator of equivalent rank will act as alternate in his/her place."
The group within CIAC that sets statewide policy for high school sports is an 18-member body called the Board of Control for Interscholastic Athletics. It consists of 16 high school principals, two specially selected assistant HS principals, and a past chair of the Board of Control (who may be a retired HS principal).
Since the vast majority of HS principals in Connecticut are men, the Board of Contol in any given year is overwhelminingly made up of men.
When the CIAC Board of Control decided in 2013 to adopt a new policy that allows male HS students who claim to have a trans gender identity to compete in girls' HS sports if that's what they want to do, this is who was serving on the Board at the time:
Robert Hale, Principal Westbrook High School Steve Wysowski, Principal Bristol Eastern High School Matt Dunbar, Principal Glastonbury High School Paul Newton, Principal Enrico Fermi High School, Enfield George Synnott, Principal Berlin High School James Wenker, Principal Newington High School Greg Shugrue, Principal New Milford High School Eric Baim, Principal Rockville High School, Vernon Margaret Williamson, Principal N.W. Catholic High School, West Hartford Andrea Lavery, Principal Portland High School Anthony Azzara, Principal Sacred Heart High School, Waterbury Sheila Riffle, Asst. Principal, E.O. Smith School, Storrs Rick Misenti, Principal Guilford High School Robert Tremaglio, Principal Trumbull High School Kirk Murad, Principal Windham Tech. High School Brian Mignault, Principal Ellis Tech. High School, Killingly Daniel Sullivan, Principal South Windsor High School Stephen Patrina, Asst. Principal, Simsbury High School
If a statewide school sports governing body made of 15 men and 3 women doesn't count in your eyes as a male-dominated institution, then how on earth would you describe it?
This post was edited 19 minutes after it was posted.
Even if that is true (*), there is no reason to believe that "male dominated institutions' are the obstacle to your (or her) cause. Men are overwhelmingly in favor of your position. And they are consistently more supportive of your positions than women.
Unless she is suggesting that those men are lying in the opinion polls and they are actually in favor of trans inclusion, her argument makes absolutely no sense.
(* Just like there are women / girls who are reluctant to speak up against trans inclusion, there are also women / girls who are reluctant to speak up for trans inclusion. They have been targets of online harassment and threats simply for speaking up for their friends.)
JAHJ: are you seriously trying to suggest that the organizations that make the rules and regulations for sports are not male-dominated institutions?
If that's the case, then please show your evidence.
In an effort to find out how and why it's come to pass that the female category of sport got opened up to male athletes who claim to have special gender identities, I've looked at quite a few of the rule-making bodies in sports pretty carefully.
What I've found is that whether they are world governing bodies that hold sway internationally and even globally (like the IOC, World Athletics, FINA/World Aquatics, FIFA, UCI, ICC, and Little League), or they're rule-making organizations that have national reach (like USATF, USA Swimming, UK Athletics, British Cycling, Athletics South Africa, the USA's NCAA, NAIA, NBA, MLB, NHL), or they're sports governing bodies that have a more narrow scope (like the 50 different state organizations that set the rules for interscholastic sports below the college/uni level in each of the US states) - one thing that these organizations have in common is that they are all male-dominated.
They are male-dominated in the sense that men vastly outnumber women in terms of who belongs to, votes in, works for and runs these orgs.
Moreover, they are male-dominated in the sense that most of the high-up positions with the most power within these orgs are held by men. This means men are in the driver's seat when it comes to deciding the rules and regulations for the sports and sports competitions these organizations are in charge of - including setting the eligiblity criteria for participation in the female category.
The organization that sets the rules and regulations for school sports and interscholastic sports competition in Connecticut is CIAC, the Connecticut Interschlolastic Athletic Conference, is a case in point.
CIAC is a private, nonprofit organization founded in 1921 by a group of male high school principals interested in protecting and promoting the interests of student-athletes in CT - who at the time were all male. Today, virtually all public and parochial high schools in Connecticut are dues-paying members of the CIAC.
Although CIAC is a private, nonprofit corporation that is not subject to Title IX or the federal oversight laws like the FOIA, pretty much all the bodies that are in charge of public and private education in Connecticut such as all the public school boards have delegated their legal authority to CIAC to oversee and create the rules and regulations for high school athletics in the state. From the CIAC's handbooks and other documents:
CIAC determines athletic eligibility; makes rules for athletic competition, including safety and health rules; and runs state boys' and girls' tournaments and controls state championships for various sports.
State law does not require CIAC to report to the Connecticut General Assembly or any other government body in Connecticut. Neither the state legislature nor any governmental agency oversees the organization.
CIAC is entirely self-governing, answering to an internally elected board composed of member school representatives who uphold a constitution and by-laws and assisted by a paid staff.
The representatives to CIAC are all either school principals or principal-adjacent:
"The principal [of each member school] shall be the sole CIAC representative of his/her school and shall have one vote. If unable to attend a meeting... he/she may designate in writing that the assistant principal or other building administrator of equivalent rank will act as alternate in his/her place."
The group within CIAC that sets statewide policy for high school sports is an 18-member body called the Board of Control for Interscholastic Athletics. It consists of 16 high school principals, two specially selected assistant HS principals, and a past chair of the Board of Control (who may be a retired HS principal).
Since the vast majority of HS principals in Connecticut are men, the Board of Contol in any given year is overwhelminingly made up of men.
When the CIAC Board of Control decided in 2013 to adopt a new policy that allows male HS students who claim to have a trans gender identity to compete in girls' HS sports if that's what they want to do, this is who was serving on the Board at the time:
Robert Hale, Principal Westbrook High School Steve Wysowski, Principal Bristol Eastern High School Matt Dunbar, Principal Glastonbury High School Paul Newton, Principal Enrico Fermi High School, Enfield George Synnott, Principal Berlin High School James Wenker, Principal Newington High School Greg Shugrue, Principal New Milford High School Eric Baim, Principal Rockville High School, Vernon Margaret Williamson, Principal N.W. Catholic High School, West Hartford Andrea Lavery, Principal Portland High School Anthony Azzara, Principal Sacred Heart High School, Waterbury Sheila Riffle, Asst. Principal, E.O. Smith School, Storrs Rick Misenti, Principal Guilford High School Robert Tremaglio, Principal Trumbull High School Kirk Murad, Principal Windham Tech. High School Brian Mignault, Principal Ellis Tech. High School, Killingly Daniel Sullivan, Principal South Windsor High School Stephen Patrina, Asst. Principal, Simsbury High School
If a statewide school sports governing body made of 15 men and 3 women doesn't count in your eyes as a male-dominated institution, then how on earth would you describe it?
How can someone be this dumb at reading comprehension? There are so many posts clearly saying men are more likely to agree with Verbosa, a thesis it challenged and lost. Now it’s coping by willfully misinterpreting clear language to launch into a useless verbose rant that no one needs to hear.
As if you can change that, but not your age, and not your race.
Oh OK.
And people fell for this. Lots.
Didn't fall for it, were forced into it. This is what the right fundamentally doesn't understand. Force and power is what convinces 80% of people-- debates and logical arguments don't matter and don't convince the masses. For example, BLM and other terrorist groups were successful BECAUSE they were "mostly peaceful", not in spite of it.
As for your other point: are you seriously trying to suggest that the organizations that make the rules and regulations for sports - and which in the past 20 or so years decided to open up the female category to males who claim special identities - are not male-dominated institutions?
No. I am NOT trying to say that. I am trying to say that the organizations that have banned trans athletes from female sports are at least equally male-dominant. So those organizations being male-dominant has nothing to do with their position on trans athletes.
Are you seriously trying to tell us that the state legislatures in Republican controlled states are not male-dominant?
WV, TN, MS, SC, AL, OK, WY, AR, LA and ND rank in the bottom ten in the number of women in state legislatures. All ten states have banned trans athletes in women's sports.
NV, AZ, CO, WA, VT, NM, RI, ME, IL and MD are in the top ten. AZ in the only state among this group that has banned trans athletes.
And somehow the problem is that the state governments in NV, CO, WA, VT, NM, RI ME, IL and MD are male-dominant, while that is not a problem in WV, TN, MS, SC, AL, OK, WY, AR, LA and ND.
A growing number of states and sports governing bodies are passing legislation that restricts transgender athletes' ability to participate in sports. What does science say, and how is legislation affecting athletes?
As for your other point: are you seriously trying to suggest that the organizations that make the rules and regulations for sports - and which in the past 20 or so years decided to open up the female category to males who claim special identities - are not male-dominated institutions?
No. I am NOT trying to say that. I am trying to say that the organizations that have banned trans athletes from female sports are at least equally male-dominant. So those organizations being male-dominant has nothing to do with their position on trans athletes.
Are you seriously trying to tell us that the state legislatures in Republican controlled states are not male-dominant?
WV, TN, MS, SC, AL, OK, WY, AR, LA and ND rank in the bottom ten in the number of women in state legislatures. All ten states have banned trans athletes in women's sports.
NV, AZ, CO, WA, VT, NM, RI, ME, IL and MD are in the top ten. AZ in the only state among this group that has banned trans athletes.
And somehow the problem is that the state governments in NV, CO, WA, VT, NM, RI ME, IL and MD are male-dominant, while that is not a problem in WV, TN, MS, SC, AL, OK, WY, AR, LA and ND.
As if you can change that, but not your age, and not your race.
Oh OK.
And people fell for this. Lots.
Didn't fall for it, were forced into it. This is what the right fundamentally doesn't understand. Force and power is what convinces 80% of people-- debates and logical arguments don't matter and don't convince the masses. For example, BLM and other terrorist groups were successful BECAUSE they were "mostly peaceful", not in spite of it.
They weren't successful because they were mostly peaceful- because they were not mostly peaceful. See the outrage du jour on college campuses and the mess thats created.
They were-and are- successful because people - especially the younger ones- are sheep that not only blindly follow the current cool bandwagon herd, they're also loud and unrelenting and are convinced they know everything.
The consequence of everyone gets a medal/everyones a winner.
I guess someone didn’t graduate from elementary school. It’s basic biology that males are stronger than females. It’s sad that people have to cheat to have success. He would have been last in the boys race.
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