I also think the reaction on here has been absolutely ludicrous and completely disproportionate to the threat. It has almost nothing to do with fairness of sport. It's simple transphobia . Nothing more.
While there certainly are people who are transphobic who are very vocal on this issue, you have oversimplified greatly.
I have posted this several times, but I am a left-of-left liberal on most issues, have a person in my life who is trans who I love and support in every way I can, I walk in my community's Pride March, and so on.
Even so, I oppose the participation of XY humans in sports competing against XX humans.
Why?
Because I understand basic scientific principles regarding athletic advantages that can't be suppressed or rolled back effectively.
I have always supported Title IX and related efforts to create better opportunities for XX humans and believe those are threatened. It takes no imagination at all to arrive at the conclusion that when Title IX was signed into law, the intent was to create equity based on biology. Nobody who voted for that law did so to create opportunity for XY humans to beat XX humans in sporting events fifty years later.
I believe that it is best to nip a threat in the bud with clear, concise, fair policies that protect the rights of the greatest number possible.
Competing against XX humans is not a "right" that XY humans enjoy. It might be a desire, but it is not a right.
And for the record, the trans person in my life agrees. His position is that allowing XY humans to compete with girls and women is "ridiculous" and "makes all trans people look really bad."
While there certainly are people who are transphobic who are very vocal on this issue, you have oversimplified greatly.
I have posted this several times, but I am a left-of-left liberal on most issues, have a person in my life who is trans who I love and support in every way I can, I walk in my community's Pride March, and so on.
Even so, I oppose the participation of XY humans in sports competing against XX humans.
Why?
Because I understand basic scientific principles regarding athletic advantages that can't be suppressed or rolled back effectively.
I have always supported Title IX and related efforts to create better opportunities for XX humans and believe those are threatened. It takes no imagination at all to arrive at the conclusion that when Title IX was signed into law, the intent was to create equity based on biology. Nobody who voted for that law did so to create opportunity for XY humans to beat XX humans in sporting events fifty years later.
I believe that it is best to nip a threat in the bud with clear, concise, fair policies that protect the rights of the greatest number possible.
Competing against XX humans is not a "right" that XY humans enjoy. It might be a desire, but it is not a right.
And for the record, the trans person in my life agrees. His position is that allowing XY humans to compete with girls and women is "ridiculous" and "makes all trans people look really bad."
You must be responding to a different post?
No, I am responding to your post. As I read it, you are are suggesting that responses to this issue are driven by transphobia. I am case-in-point that that is not always true. Not even remotely.
I also think the reaction on here has been absolutely ludicrous and completely disproportionate to the threat. It has almost nothing to do with fairness of sport. It's simple transphobia . Nothing more.
While there certainly are people who are transphobic who are very vocal on this issue, you have oversimplified greatly.
To some extent yep. But go through this thread and count how many people are misgendering this athlete and then say that trans phobia isn't an issue. It makes it hard to have a discussion about if a trans woman running a 5k is picking up some 10s advantage by being trans when people are posting crap about knowing a dozen guys who can run that time. We all remember the threads about how Eastwood would dominate the NCAA. Except of course after a year of hormones, she was running basically the same level of times.
to clarify....competitive fairness is an issue but fairness is not the reason people get so worked up about it.
If that was the case, then explain all the rage about a third division that solves that competitive fairness issue completely. That made it very clear exactly what the people making the biggest fuss are so upset about. hint: It's not fairness.
You have overgeneralized. Because there are some who argue from a perspective of animosity towards trans people does not mean that all or even most do. The issue of fairness is a concern to many because it calls into question the very reason for women's sport.
On your other point, about a third division, this doesn't cause outrage - that is reserved for males competing as women.
you must have mised it Lots of people were outraged over awarding prize money in a third non-binary division, including the owner of this site. Lots of the same people in this thread that are now claiming it's all about 'fairness.' Very telling.
I think the vast majority of people who don't think people with male biological advantages should compete against women are NOT transphobic.
I'm saying that the vast majority of posters that feel a need for a dozen trans threads a week are.
It's possible to oppose males competing in the female division and also notice that the amount of obsession about the topic on LRC is strange and clearly motivated by something besides 'fairness'
You have overgeneralized. Because there are some who argue from a perspective of animosity towards trans people does not mean that all or even most do. The issue of fairness is a concern to many because it calls into question the very reason for women's sport.
On your other point, about a third division, this doesn't cause outrage - that is reserved for males competing as women.
you must have mised it Lots of people were outraged over awarding prize money in a third non-binary division, including the owner of this site. Lots of the same people in this thread that are now claiming it's all about 'fairness.' Very telling.
I think the vast majority of people who don't think people with male biological advantages should compete against women are NOT transphobic.
I'm saying that the vast majority of posters that feel a need for a dozen trans threads a week are.
It's possible to oppose males competing in the female division and also notice that the amount of obsession about the topic on LRC is strange and clearly motivated by something besides 'fairness'
My issue is that you wrote this:
"It's simple transphobia . Nothing more."
My point, while you and I can agree that there is a fair amount of transphobia, is that there is A LOT more (literally the opposite of "nothing more") in terms of reasons to oppose XY humans competing against women and girls. And not all people, starting with me, who want to preserve a space for XX humans to compete against each other are transphobic.
Some are scientists.
Some are women who want their own space to compete.
Some are women who feel cheated or wronged by XX humans taking their awards and records.
Some are men and women who coach girls and women.
Some are trans people themselves.
Some are several of the above.
If someone opposes trans participation against women, it might be easy to label them as transphobic and to try to disregard their position based on that ad hominem attack, but many of us are not remotely transphobic.
My point, while you and I can agree that there is a fair amount of transphobia, is that there is A LOT more (literally the opposite of "nothing more") in terms of reasons to oppose XY humans competing against women and girls. And not all people, starting with me, who want to preserve a space for XX humans to compete against each other are transphobic.
Some are scientists.
Some are women who want their own space to compete.
Some are women who feel cheated or wronged by XX humans taking their awards and records.
Some are men and women who coach girls and women.
Some are trans people themselves.
Some are several of the above.
If someone opposes trans participation against women, it might be easy to label them as transphobic and to try to disregard their position based on that ad hominem attack, but many of us are not remotely transphobic.
Some are me.
I want to preserve a space for XX humans to compete against each other.
It'a the blowing it complete out of proportion and obsessively posting about it over and over and over that is transphobic, nothing more. That is what I meant.
I'm not responding to the view that there some issues to be sorted out to preserve the integrity of XX competition, I'm referring to the utter mouth frothing uproar around the issue on LRC that has probably had hundreds threads on the exact same topic over and over and over.
Thinking it's an issue that needs to be sorted out doesn't make you transphobic. I think it's an issue that needs to be sorted out.
Calling it the end of women's sports and posting thread after thread after hyperbolic thread about it and front page headline after front page headline about it and throwing a hissy fit when a third division is created to solve pretty much the entire issue...THAT is transphobic. Nothing more. That's what i meant. THAT part is not about fairness, it is simply piggybacking on the very reasonable fairness in competition issue to vent their transphobia all over the forum over and over.
My point, while you and I can agree that there is a fair amount of transphobia, is that there is A LOT more (literally the opposite of "nothing more") in terms of reasons to oppose XY humans competing against women and girls. And not all people, starting with me, who want to preserve a space for XX humans to compete against each other are transphobic.
Some are scientists.
Some are women who want their own space to compete.
Some are women who feel cheated or wronged by XX humans taking their awards and records.
Some are men and women who coach girls and women.
Some are trans people themselves.
Some are several of the above.
If someone opposes trans participation against women, it might be easy to label them as transphobic and to try to disregard their position based on that ad hominem attack, but many of us are not remotely transphobic.
Some are me.
I want to preserve a space for XX humans to compete against each other.
It'a the blowing it complete out of proportion and obsessively posting about it over and over and over that is transphobic, nothing more. That is what I meant.
I'm not responding to the view that there some issues to be sorted out to preserve the integrity of XX competition, I'm referring to the utter mouth frothing uproar around the issue on LRC that has probably had hundreds threads on the exact same topic over and over and over.
Thinking it's an issue that needs to be sorted out doesn't make you transphobic. I think it's an issue that needs to be sorted out.
Calling it the end of women's sports and posting thread after thread after hyperbolic thread about it and front page headline after front page headline about it and throwing a hissy fit when a third division is created to solve pretty much the entire issue...THAT is transphobic. Nothing more. That's what i meant. THAT part is not about fairness, it is simply piggybacking on the very reasonable fairness in competition issue to vent their transphobia all over the forum over and over.
I really appreciate that we could have a fair exchange on this. I have a much fuller understanding of your position, and I certainly agree with you that way too many of the threads and posts devolve into name calling, dead naming, and other such nonsense.
I really appreciate that we could have a fair exchange on this. I have a much fuller understanding of your position, and I certainly agree with you that way too many of the threads and posts devolve into name calling, dead naming, and other such nonsense.
Yeah, in my opinion the real threat is that all the transphobic ranters and axe grinders creates a public backlash and it takes longer that it needs to create sensible guidelines.
There is a reason that participation is low. I am a Masters woman who does compete. It is challenging to balance time with my small children, work a full-time job, coach, and then train myself. That's why it is hard to see the women's masters records getting taken in this manner. For those who think we should speak out more, many people, myself included, fear consequences in our jobs and coaching positions, as speaking out against this is often misunderstood as transphobia.
Anything worth pursuing will have the possibility of consequences. You, the Penn swimmers, and anyone else that finds this unfair needs to fight it and accept that there may be short term consequences.
People were arrested for fighting discrimination in the 60's. They didn't sit around and say "we should speak out about these separate drinking fountains but we might have consequences". They accepted that doing the right thing may come with consequences and did them anyway.
While as a competitor and fan of the sport I strongly disagree with people born male taking women's places and records, I fear a race or competition level protest would be unkind and hurtful to someone who has probably dealt with too much of that in her life already. It cannot seem personal. The rules need to change from the top.
Agreed. That’s not how the masters women roll where I race. However, the environment this past year was such that I wouldn’t recommend to my worst enemy to join the circuit (track or cross). I lay full blame on the decision makers at the governing body for failing all of us including Tiffany.
Agreed. That’s not how the masters women roll where I race. However, the environment this past year was such that I wouldn’t recommend to my worst enemy to join the circuit (track or cross). I lay full blame on the decision makers at the governing body for failing all of us including Tiffany.
Yes. Athletics Ontario and Athletics Canada have let us all down. It is demoralizing.
On the ground wrote: However, the environment this past year was such that I wouldn’t recommend to my worst enemy to join the circuit (track or cross).
Is there anything specific you can share about the environment and uour experiences?