Too much lactic threshold work destroys mitochrondria?

not a scientist wrote:

Running too hard too often destroys the aerobic base that you've spent all that time building.

I can't remember where I heard this. Maybe babbled by Sage Canaday?

Is this correct?

Mitochondria get bigger and smaller and bigger and smaller, depending on the workload both aerobic and what runners call anaerobic (but is really high intensity aerobic).

The size of mitochondrion most likely changes due to oxidative stress.

HOWEVER, this doesn't affect aerobic capacity, but mostly likely does affect recovery from very hard workouts and races.

So the thing we all need to know, without getting muscle biopsies (nasty) is how to train properly. The answer is to train progressively and listen to your body.

Interesting. I have a few questions.

1. Do you do every run in this sweet spot area of approx 148 - 162 bpm (after building up to it)?

2. How did you determine your MaxHR? There are a lot of methods I’ve seen used.

3. How long do you go at that intensity? 60 min a day? 90? More?

4. What does that range FEEL like to you? In other words, is it mouth breathing? Easy breathing through the mouth? One notch below hard breathing?

Sounds like what you’re doing is working

not quite. wrote:

Happy Thanksgiving wrote:

Humans DO produce lacTIC acid because of the anaerobic/incomplete breakdown of glucose. That lacTIC acid then disassociates from it’s H+ (acidity) ion; then yes, lactATE is/can be used as a fuel in an aerobic complete energy production.

Lacate doesn't dissociate. The H+ is coming from ATP hydrolysis

That’s correct... lactate is minus the H+ ion. Your reading comprehension and understanding is lacking. For the purposes of this discussion lactic acid ‘gives up’ its H+ ion and is then lactate ...from there it is either used as fuel in the cori cycle inside the muscle cell or converted in the liver back into glucose by the process of gluconeogenesis. Again lactate is a form of fuel; the H+ Is not from ATP hydrolysis but from the lactic acid (H+) , once dissociated becomes fuel-lactate.

Bad Wigins wrote:

inclined_to_agree wrote:

Regarding lowering of acidity, I suppose it is a question of how often.

Not the point.

The rate of gas exchange between blood and muscle increases with the difference in pH. Mitochondria can only use what oxygen is given to them. It makes no sense to expect an increase in their activity if you keep the pH difference low. And it makes perfect sense to expect them to adapt to high oxygen availability, which is provided by so-called VO2max work, by increasing in number and activity.

That acidity is always present in the muscle as long as you're warmed up and running a a decent pace. You don't notice it until the blood can no longer clear it, which causes the blood/muscle pH gradient to plummet, throttling gas exchange and reducing the muscle's output.

Thank you very much for clarifying, this is actually music to my ears! It matches common sense. So, as one of the other posters argued, you would say that there is no such thing of doing a certain kind of workout too often, inducing plateauing or burnout? That it rather is a question of listening to one's body and recovering adequately, and of keeping fresh mentally?

fisky wrote:

[quote]Fogrunr wrote:

The big component is mitochondrial enzymes. During prolonged weeks of aerobic base building, the density of the mitochondrial enzymes increases amazingly. Just like anything there is a sweet spot for optimum enzyme density development. I find the sweet spot and keep it there during all my runs.

I'm always interested in training theories. How did you determine that your "sweet spot" was 155? That would seem to be well below your lactate threshold, which I'd guess would be ~170.

It sounds like Fogrunr is running not at the lactate (aka anaerobic) threshold but at around the aerobic threshold. This will definitely be great training, as pushing the aerobic threshold closer to the lactate threshold is also a key aspect of high performance (there is no need to buffer lactate if one is not producing any!). But I don't see that it is necessary to run only at that pace, one could perfectly well do faster work as well.

there is no such thing as Lactate acid

Lactic Acid itself cannot exist in the pH within cells.

Lactate does

FYI

Good idea to study some simple Biochem before posting :-)

Read the Hadd thread - it'll explain a lot.

not a clue wrote:

otter wrote:

Yes, it is true to a degree.

If you do a hard workout which is needed you will cause minor damage the mitochondria to a degree where they will not regenerate within a few days. If you do too many quality and or racing efforts in a short period of time, it will cause damage that will take too long to recover from to be beneficial.

Would lifting weights cause a similar damage, reducing aerobic capacity? Or are the bursts of energy required in typical weight lifting more in the ATP whatever system side of things?

I know hypertrophy will slow me down from the weight, but is it also F-ing up the mitochrondria?

Hmmm. I don’t know for sure. Does anyone know the answer? Scientific answer, not in hunches.

I know it would unlikely make your blood acidic in the same way a 10x400 workout would but I don’t know whether their would be a reduction in mitochondria as an adaptation to the lifting.

There

I found that 155 is my sweet spot by figuring out that 120 is my reference point for 1 minute recovery and 2 minute recovery after a run.

It made sense that 65% of max heart rate is where the heart beats the most powerfully and fully. I had learned that by reading triathlete Mark Allen's account of changing his training to target maximum aerobic function as guided by Dr. Paul Maffetone.

But I thought my max heart rate was 201. That's the highest I had recorded it at age 30. So I began training at 130 bpm. I quickly deduced that that was too low to make optimum progress. My 1 minute and 2 minute recoveries were both down in the 105 to 115 range, and my bedtime heart rate was near 40, as was my morning heart rate. It wasn't enough stimulus.

I guessed that I could train my heart to beat more efficiently and that my maximum heart rate may be actually higher.

So I stepped it up each day until I say started to see a difference in evening resting heart rate. I figured out it was okay if the morning heart rate was still a little bit elevated maybe 5 beats.

I do two-a-days:

A.M. 3.5 miles

P.M. 7-8 miles

Friday 6-8 miles only p.m.

Saturday long hilly easy trails with ultra runners, minimum 2 hours.

Sunday Very easy soft leafy trails 5 miles (my easiest gentlest run)

I worked my way up to 148 and that's when things really started to happen. My speed over the trails was improving in 5 seconds/mile increments at the same heart rate. I was growing my aerobic engine size.

I asked my way up to 152, then 155 and 158 and 162. Based on the one and two minute recoveries and the evening and resting heart rate, 148 -162 seem to be ideal. And halfway between that is 155. You have to push the edge of the upper aerobic to get the best results for your time. And you have to resist the temptation to go anaerobic. Don't do it. Stay aerobic. BUT... Run with quick efficient steps, always working on your technique and perfect timing. Try to get your heart rate to drop at the same tempo while running uphill by being more efficient. Take advantage of easy down slopes to run faster without sacrificing to a higher heart rate. That is how you play the game of working the aerobic ball uphill like that game with the two steel rods where you spread the rods apart and the ball rolls uphill. You have to be patient. If you spread the rods too quickly and push your heart rate into anaerobic, the ball will drop off the rods just like your enzyme development will stall or stop.

The goal is not to hit a high heart rate.

The goal is to hit higher speeds at an aerobic heart rate.

So how did I go from age 30 max heart rate of 201, to age 50, 52 and 52 max heart rate of 210, 212 and 216?

I did this aerobic training as described, and in late February each year, as my first race, I ran a very hilly 10 mile race, sprinting the last half mile. It was never my fastest 10 miler, but it was an indicator of development.

My optimum mileage that I can repeat comfortably during 4 to 5 months of base training is 70-75 miles per week. The first 3-4 weeks I'm doing 60 to 65.

I'll do a 2-hour Saturday long run very easy with ultra-running friends over hilly trails. The long run puts the tiger in the tank.

inclined_to_agree wrote:

So, as one of the other posters argued, you would say that there is no such thing of doing a certain kind of workout too often, inducing plateauing or burnout? That it rather is a question of listening to one's body and recovering adequately, and of keeping fresh mentally?

I don't see how that would follow from what I wrote. Other things besides acidity can cause those things.

What I meant was when you start feeling acid, it's already spilled out of the muscle cells where it originated. Whether it harmed the muscle before or not, there's no reason to expect greater harm once it overflows. There is reason to expect the muscle's performance to drop, but only until the blood pH returns to optimal levels.

Fogrunr wrote:

My optimum mileage that I can repeat comfortably during 4 to 5 months of base training is 70-75 miles per week. The first 3-4 weeks I'm doing 60 to 65.

I'll do a 2-hour Saturday long run very easy with ultra-running friends over hilly trails. The long run puts the tiger in the tank.

Yeah, but how fast are you?

Fogrunr wrote:

My optimum mileage that I can repeat comfortably during 4 to 5 months of base training is 70-75 miles per week. The first 3-4 weeks I'm doing 60 to 65.

I'll do a 2-hour Saturday long run very easy with ultra-running friends over hilly trails. The long run puts the tiger in the tank.

I assume you must be well below the 148 - 162 range in the long run, then. You are likely preventing overtraining with your schedule as well. That’s a very unique process to determine that range and I’m not sure I totally follow. On multiple runs of varying steady effort, you measured time down to 120 bpm? The average HR of the run with time to 120 @ 60 seconds is the low end and time to 120 @ 2 minutes is the high end?

I’m also assuming these 148-162 range runs have a moderate feel to them where your breathing is up a bit but not hard.

Happy Thanksgiving wrote:

not quite. wrote:

Lacate doesn't dissociate. The H+ is coming from ATP hydrolysis

That’s correct... lactate is minus the H+ ion. Your reading comprehension and understanding is lacking. For the purposes of this discussion lactic acid ‘gives up’ its H+ ion and is then lactate ...from there it is either used as fuel in the cori cycle inside the muscle cell or converted in the liver back into glucose by the process of gluconeogenesis. Again lactate is a form of fuel; the H+ Is not from ATP hydrolysis but from the lactic acid (H+) , once dissociated becomes fuel-lactate.

No, you are the one with poor reading comprehension and understanding. Lactate does not have a proton to give up at any point nor its monocarboxylate precursors. The proton comes from ATP hydrolysis. Do some research, there is no lactic acid. The acidity comes from the splitting of ATP to ADP

Fogrunr wrote:

So how did I go from age 30 max heart rate of 201, to age 50, 52 and 52 max heart rate of 210, 212 and 216?

Either you were dangerously dehydrated or more likely and very common, you watch was malfunctioning.