Who had the better career - Deena Kastor or Shalane Flanagan?

NotFarEnough wrote:

[quote]LetsRun.com wrote:

I give it to Flanagan because track accomplishments matter more than XC or roads

^^This

A summary of the Marathon career of them both shows that there is a huge difference:

https://marathonview.net/compare.php?q1=Shalane%20Flanagan&q2=deena%20kastor

There is no single aspect in which Flanagan is better. Her PR is almost 2 minutes slower, she won just one major (and Kastor two). Kastor's career was much longer and versatile.

Flanagan won the only face to face battle between them. Than was at the Olympic trails of 2012 and at that time, Kastor was almost 40.

Bowdoin Polar Bear wrote:

Joanie was part of Athletics West with AlSal and Decker-Slaney. That’s close enough for me to wonder about all of her 1980’s performances.

She ran 2:21 at a point in history when training theory wasn’t well established or shared, and at a time when testosterone was easy to come by, and after only five years of serious running. Come on, I’m not the only one thinking it.

She’s Nike through and through. So were Decker-Slaney, Marion, Lance, and AlSal. And because of the outlier nature of her performances and the team and folks she’s chosen to associate herself with, over the last 40 years, she doesn’t belong in the GOAT conversation.

Change my mind.

You are missing one key component here. Almost all athletes that abuse testosterone, steroids, HGH at some point have major and in most cases career ending injuries due to connective tissue (tendons, cartilage, ligament) breakdown. The Muscle fibers react and grow at a much faster rate than connective tissue. This has not been the case with Joan, she is still running at a world class level at age 62 so I am not buying that she cheated just because she is a Nike athlete.

LetsRun.com wrote:

Their careers are very similar in many ways - both won 5 US Outdoor titles, an Olympic medal, a world xc medal (Kastor won 2), a ton of US xc titles (Kastor 8, Flanagan 6), a world marathon major (Kastor won 2) and set numerous American records.

I think I line towards Kastor given her two world xc medals and her two major wins and the fact that her 2:19 AR still stands, but I'm willing to be corrected.

https://www.letsrun.com/news/2019/10/who-is-the-goat-of-us-womens-distance-running-shalane-flanagan-or-deena-kastor-or-someone-else/

Advice:

Quit comparing people to each other.

Everyone is unique.

Why isn’t the Kara in this conversation? Besides her medals, what she had done to help take down the cheating NOP is probably the biggest thing ever done to help American running.

I guess for me its more like does Shalane get past the bouncer and into the "US women's distance exclusive club." That club has had three real members for a long time - Kastor, Jennings, and Benoit (note all three with New England roots) and a few others who get occasional guest passes like Francie Larrieu, Doris Brown-Heritage etc. The answer is probably yes based on the summary of Shalane's career. You can debate who was the best but I think her entry into the group is well deserved.

If I were Shalane, I'd be really insulted by the latest LRC podcast. First of all, one of the Johnsons has no idea how to pronounce her name. And secondly, they mark everything she did with asterisks for one reason or another, while barely mentioning the fact that Joanie and Lynn Jennings and Deena did not face nearly the level of competition Shalane did. That's not to mention the convicted dopers who dominated so many of Shalane's races (though, to be sure, the others competed against dopers, too). Shalane wore the shoes. Shalane beat Keitany only because of her period. Shalane "only" won one major. They totally diminish her accomplishments in a way they don't to her predecessors. She's got my vote for the GOAT.

I always remember Deena’s Athens performance it was such an epic run to get bronze.

She ran so smart, went through halfway in about 20th place then just picked people off in the brutal conditions.

i agree benoit all the way

Joanie is the “GOAT”...........She had knee surgery a few weeks before & still won the Oly Trials!!

The funny thing is that I think Shalane would agree with you that Joanie was better, and certainly more iconic.

I also kind of get the feeling that LRC puts asterisks next to Shalane's accomplishments. Glad to see someone else say the same thing. She is a game day player. So many great years of races. Thanks for the memories, Shalane.

I misread the post, between Deena and Shalane-Deena.

GOAT- Joanie.

I'll bet Benji Durden could go sub 3:00.

sanchobaile wrote:

If I were Shalane, I'd be really insulted by the latest LRC podcast. First of all, one of the Johnsons has no idea how to pronounce her name. And secondly, they mark everything she did with asterisks for one reason or another, while barely mentioning the fact that Joanie and Lynn Jennings and Deena did not face nearly the level of competition Shalane did. That's not to mention the convicted dopers who dominated so many of Shalane's races (though, to be sure, the others competed against dopers, too). Shalane wore the shoes. Shalane beat Keitany only because of her period. Shalane "only" won one major. They totally diminish her accomplishments in a way they don't to her predecessors. She's got my vote for the GOAT.

Oh well. HRC got some votes too

Gotta give an edge to Deena for the 2:19 but also gotta be super skeptical if that’s clean or not.

Bowdoin Polar Bear wrote:

Joanie was part of Athletics West with AlSal and Decker-Slaney. That’s close enough for me to wonder about all of her 1980’s performances.

She ran 2:21 at a point in history when training theory wasn’t well established or shared, and at a time when testosterone was easy to come by, and after only five years of serious running. Come on, I’m not the only one thinking it.

She’s Nike through and through. So were Decker-Slaney, Marion, Lance, and AlSal. And because of the outlier nature of her performances and the team and folks she’s chosen to associate herself with, over the last 40 years, she doesn’t belong in the GOAT conversation.

Change my mind.

Benoit is the last person in all of running that I would suspect of doping.

She really started training seriously by 1977, so more like eight years.

And she had access to plenty of training advice; she worked in Jack Daniels' lab for a time, and was generally advised by Bob Sevene.

Deena all the way! Deena became the first American to set the 5K World Record since 1986. 14:54 at the Carlsbad 5000 in 2002! And that record for the marathon, she did it clean, the same way she’s run every single race her whole life. She’s an inspiration, for sure!

In 1981 she had Achilles surgery and in 1983 she ran a world record.

1984 she had arthroscopic knee surgery just 17 days before the United States Olympic Women's Marathon Trials. She still raced and won by 30 seconds (2:31). Three months later, she runs 2:24 to win Olympics over greats like Grete Waitz and Ingrid Kristiansen.

These could be true champion performances... but I have a difficult time buying that a 33:20 10km runner with two major surgeries and less than a decade of marathon training could run a 2:21, let alone a 2:24 Olympic gold without help. AND she trained with Mary Slaney and AlSal and Athletics West... that’s not too big of a leap.

DeenaFtw wrote:

I always remember Deena’s Athens performance it was such an epic run to get bronze.

She ran so smart, went through halfway in about 20th place then just picked people off in the brutal conditions.

Deena was methodical and oh so tough in that race. Watching her finish that race was one of my most memorable viewing experiences. Very emotional.