CAN SOMEONE EXPLAIN WHY SEMENYA CAN RUN 5K AND 10K WITH HIGH TESTOSTERONE?

Michael Phelps has an exceptionally high T value. Much higher than normal males. What was he allowed to compete with reducing his uber-high T?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/we-celebrated-michael-phelpss-genetic-differences-why-punish-caster-semenya-for-hers/2019/05/02/93d08c8c-6c2b-11e9-be3a-33217240a539_story.html

Ts. wrote:

Michael Phelps has an exceptionally high T value. Much higher than normal males. What was he allowed to compete with reducing his uber-high T?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/we-celebrated-michael-phelpss-genetic-differences-why-punish-caster-semenya-for-hers/2019/05/02/93d08c8c-6c2b-11e9-be3a-33217240a539_story.html

Because Phelps is a biological male competing in the male category. Semenya is a biological male who wants to compete in the female category.

The reason why people are getting confused is because they think Semenya is just a girl with high testosterone (and that they're morans)

Think about your average talented but not elite high school athlete. What event are they closest to a women's professional level? How many good swimmers or soccer players have you seen show up for track with minimal experience and run 2-flat 800 by the end of the season? Now how many have you seen run 14:30 for 5k?

Testosterone certainly provides an advantage in other distances, it just seems to be maximized relative to other factors in the mid-distance events.

M. Phelps is a male! I'm sure he has a biological passport and has been tested 1000s of times over his career. He has never been shown to have illegally levels of any hormone natural or natural.

Women who have PCOS have high levels of testosterone but their chromosomes are XX. My guess is they are not required to lower their levels. Note: these women also have other symptoms that would probably hurt athletic ability.

trollism wrote:

Ts. wrote:

Michael Phelps has an exceptionally high T value. Much higher than normal males. What was he allowed to compete with reducing his uber-high T?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/we-celebrated-michael-phelpss-genetic-differences-why-punish-caster-semenya-for-hers/2019/05/02/93d08c8c-6c2b-11e9-be3a-33217240a539_story.html

Because Phelps is a biological male competing in the male category. Semenya is a biological male who wants to compete in the female category.

The reason why people are getting confused is because they think Semenya is just a girl with high testosterone (and that they're morans)

Then you are 100% OKAY with any "male" athlete taking testosterone to get their levels to match people like Phelps. Fair is fair.

Ts. wrote:

Michael Phelps has an exceptionally high T value. Much higher than normal males. What was he allowed to compete with reducing his uber-high T?

Ignoring the fact that Phelps doesn't have a super high T level (he article talks about his wingspan), let me help you understand a few key things:

1 )First of all, there are a number of things that Ms Hesse and others in the media aren't reporting. Nowhere in the article does Ms Hesse state that Caster Semenya has XY chromosomes. Those are the chromosomes associated traditionally with males and are why Ms Semenya is believed to lack an ovary and have internal testicles.

2) The Michael Phelps is a genetic outlier argument is a bad one for a simply reason. Sports governing bodies don't classify athletes based on wing span or whether their ankle sare double jointed but they do classify athletes by sex. If they didn't classify by sex, there would be basically zero women's professional athletes. If you want to allow all genetic advantages in sports, then the natural extension of that argument leads to the abolishment of sex divisions in sport (because being male is also a natural genetic advantage).

The reality is sports governing bodies exclude certain types of people from certain categories of sports all the time. In boxing, a 210-pound boxer can’t fight as a flyweight (112 lb max) as the flyweight would have little realistic chance of winning. Similarly, to not allow XY women to compete with XX women isn't some ridiculous rule.

I have written an article on LetsRun.com where I tell you what you aren't seeing printed in the Washington Post:

Of course, anyone with half a brain knows that T helps in shorter and longer distances. Otherwise, it wouldn't be on WADA's banned list of substances.

C'mon that's not an argument. Even EPO is in that list!

Hi T wrote:

trollism wrote:

Because Phelps is a biological male competing in the male category. Semenya is a biological male who wants to compete in the female category.

The reason why people are getting confused is because they think Semenya is just a girl with high testosterone (and that they're morans)

Then you are 100% OKAY with any "male" athlete taking testosterone to get their levels to match people like Phelps. Fair is fair.

No, I'm happy for anyone to compete with their natural testosterone at any level unless it's a man trying to compete in women's events.

Then the reason why their testosterone is high is not because they're a 'genetic miracle' it's because they're a man.

trollism wrote:

...

No, I'm happy for anyone to compete with their natural testosterone at any level unless it's a man trying to compete in women's events.

Then the reason why their testosterone is high is not because they're a 'genetic miracle' it's because they're a man.

You've succumbed to the "false dichotomy" paradox, which is tripping up a lot of the less informed posters on the Semenya threads.

Ts. wrote:

Michael Phelps has an exceptionally high T value. Much higher than normal males. What was he allowed to compete with reducing his uber-high T?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/we-celebrated-michael-phelpss-genetic-differences-why-punish-caster-semenya-for-hers/2019/05/02/93d08c8c-6c2b-11e9-be3a-33217240a539_story.html

MIchael Phelps was an XY swimming against all the other XYs.

Semenya is an XY running against XXs.

This decision is more clever than you give it credit.

Now if Michael Phelps were to artificially boost his T for what ever reason he'd be DQd.

Ryan Hall had low T which effected his performance and he retired and took a supplement (supposedly) which DQd him from racing.

Semenya is not arguing that she is XY and so set up like a male, not a female.

This is not about an XX with high T.

emmt wrote:

Caster is like an above average high school boy. An above average boy in the 800 will destroy the women. An above average boy in the 5K will not.

yeah, that's SUPER scientific reasoning

typical speculation on Letsrun wrote:

emmt wrote:

Caster is like an above average high school boy. An above average boy in the 800 will destroy the women. An above average boy in the 5K will not.

yeah, that's SUPER scientific reasoning

High school and adult Ritz would crush the women in the 5000 olympics.

The decision to let XYs still compete in other races makes no sense. Testosterone is obviously an advantage across all events. I was a decent college athlete with decent range. My primary events were the 1500 and 5000. I ran PRs of 3:52 and 14:38 on average training while balancing school and a social life. In no way did I devote myself to training like a professional would and the coaching I received was average at best.

Besides my primary events, I also ran 49.5 in the 400, 1:53 in the 800, a 9:13 steeple, and 30:40 in the 10k. If I had competed as a woman, I could have been world class in any of those events, from the 400 to the 10k. With a small improvement in any of those events I could have been a world champion and possible world record holder in every event from the 400 to the 10k for women....and I was never an NCAA qualifier. Think about that.

loki wrote:

This case gets more insane by the minute. So if you have increased male hormones and male development for decades it will only help you at the shorter distances. Total genius move by the IAAF. Does anyone wonder why track is a complete joke? These are the idiots guiding the sport. Just like when the IAAF stated The blades that the blade runner used provided no advantage. Next you can identify as a clean athlete and that makes you exempt of testing and pardons you of past PED use. Put lance back on the podium if he identifies as a clean athlete. Total crackers! Our leaders are devoid of logic.

Agreed, completely illogical. Ban exogenous testosterone because it improves performance. Ban XY beings (men) from women's sports because that Y gives them testes, which shoot huge amounts of testosterone into the bloodstream nonstop. But only for a few events, because we actually don't know if XY performance improvement extends to long distance events.

I was also surprised to learn there's no hormone control required for 5000 / 10.000.

I appreciate if someone can answer some questions I have on this subject. Apologies in advance as some of the questions might sound stupid.

1) If I am a male and am competing in 5000 and 10.000, I assume there's a certain level of testosterone beyond which one would be considered to be doping. Am I correct?

2) how easy is for labs and tests to identify if high testosterone levels were produced naturally? In other words, if one is beyond accepted levels, can he claim it was 'naturally produced'?

3) is there any difference between 'naturally produced testosterone' and 'injected testosterone'? If yes how would these differences impact performance?

4) if testosterone beyond certain levels is considered doping but at the same time IAAF claims there are not enough studies to establish the same control rules as of 800 / 1500, would it make sense that there's simply no control anymore until further studies are published?

They don't expect Semenya to succeed at 5000/10000, and she won't. Too big. They're cutting them from Diamond League anyway.

16 something a couple weeks ago ran 1:54 easy yesterday. A runner in 1:54 shape capable of doing well at 5000 would have started out way faster.

Can you please shut up?

You said "she".

She's a woman... She's not responsible for the way she way born.

Einstein was born with a somewhat abnormal brain, and he was never chased out of class for being 'too gifted intellectually', but instead, he was celebrated and made into a global icon for his "gift".

Michael Phelps' body produces lactic acid at a much slower rate than any of his rival,, he's celebrated as an Olympic hero for all his accomplishments and nobody asks him to take medication to lower his testesterone levels.

Look at that woman who holds the world record in the 800m.. She looks a lot more masculine than Caster Semenya... But she gets a pass, you've never heard about her having to go to CAS, and having her gender questioned. Is it because she's white? Shut the f#ck up!

It's bad enough that Caster Semenya cannot compete in her chosen event, now all of you stupid fvcking Caucasians will not let a black woman shine. What is wrong with you????

Man...ain't that the truth!!!

"She" is a man, born with a V. Tell us South African about the state of medical care in the 3rd world crap hole. There are male babies born every day with Vs. There are females born with Ps. Usually things are fixed as best as possible shortly after birth. With that being said, the state of "medicine" in most of Africa is ... "has a V - girl, has a P - boy" and are raised as such. Look at Margaret Wambui and Margaret Nyairera ... both from African countries that follow the P/V protocol. Part of the testing protocol should be chromosome testing XX - Female, XY - male. "Sorry, we don't have a category for anything else". http://www.isna.org/book/print/716