Banker or lawyer? Which is the better career choice?

Another good option if you go the legal route is to getting to 40act law, or ERISA law. Work for a few years and then go in-house as a Chief Compliance Officer. Huge $$$ in that. Very relaxed hours and a lot of job security.

You can veritably feel, in your gut, the aggressive exploitation and hubris in many of the posts in this thread. How has our society been so poisoned that even the elites only care about making a buck? I don't suppose any of you feel the slightest pangs about existing as professional parasites do you?

This society is due for a reckoning and I will cheer the day the bankers and those working the levers of power fall.

Umm...excuse me? Big law is known to absolutely burn out young lawyers (its actually expected that most wont last or deal with all the work after 2-4 years of doing it). Completely stupid post.

WhyRegisterHere? wrote:

You can veritably feel, in your gut, the aggressive exploitation and hubris in many of the posts in this thread. How has our society been so poisoned that even the elites only care about making a buck? I don't suppose any of you feel the slightest pangs about existing as professional parasites do you?

This society is due for a reckoning and I will cheer the day the bankers and those working the levers of power fall.

What am I supposed to do? quit my job and make less money?

What job do you do that is so noble and morally superior?

Do you want to live in a society where the stock market doesnt exist?

Where companies cannot get access to debt or equity financing? (pretty sure all the internet and consumer products you consume needed that to get started by the way).

Where founders cannot sell their companies for cash after slaving away for decades with little to show for it until a sale?

Where individuals cannot invest in other companies to protect and grow their retirement nest eggs?

While many lawyers are indeed douches, that doesn't make them parasites.

I have been practicing law for over 20 years.

- I have never lied in the course of my job. The closest I've come is to posture during negotiations ("We are not going to agree to that.").

- I can count the number of lawyers who I know have lied to me on one hand, and I have dealt with hundreds of lawyers during the course of a transactional career in which the aggregate value of the deals measures in the billions.

- As a transactional lawyer, I am more of what most people would consider a consultant than what most people would think of as a lawyer. I never go to court and I have never sued anyone. My primary job responsibilities are: to identify potential risks to my client; to inform them of those risks and help them evaluate the likelihood of realizing the risk and the loss that they would suffer if that risk were realized; to advise them of possible ways to avoid or mitigate those risks; to help my clients evaluate the assets they will be acquiring; to resolve ambiguities in transactions; and to memorialize in a clear way what the parties have agreed to.

- I have a group of 5 guys that I am close with from the early days of my practice. None of those 5 have ever lied during the course of the job as far as I know, and I think I would probably know.

- Of those 6 guys, 1 of them transitioned into a business development/franchisee relations role for a large international casual restaurant group; 2 of them are transactional lawyers with similar practices to mine and who would have similar job descriptions; 1 of them assists banks in connection with loan defaults by commercial counterparties; 1 is a sole practitioner who handles litigation matters with an emphasis on representing debtors in bankruptcies and the other is a litigator who recently went from the personal injury defense side to the personal injury plaintiff side. So only two in 7 have the kind of career that most people think about when they think about lawyers, and only 1 of them could be considered an ambulance chaser. Most of us facilitate commercial relationships.

- Comp range probably spans from the low-to-mid $100k range to $500k-$700k on the high end, with an average probably in the mid to upper $300k range.

- The solo guy works when he wants to, the rest probably work 5 days most weeks, 6 days some weeks, 7 days for very short stretches. Typical hours are probably close to 10 hour days in the office on most days other than Fridays.

Gregor _ wrote:

Economically? Time-wise?

I will give you what I know about being a lawyer.

My brother is a lawyer, but he's no average lawyer. He first got a Ph.D. in Pharmacology, and now he's a partner in a huge law firm that does drug patent law. He makes serious money...I mean a disgusting amount of money. But, he worked his butt off to get that job, and he works his butt off now in that job. He takes 2 weeks of vacation a year, and that's it. He loves the work, so for him it's all worth it. I would NEVER want to work as much as he does, so for me that would never be worth it.

I have a good friend who is a tax attorney. No extra degrees beyond his JD. He doesn't work very hard, and he makes an above average living. I do not know for sure what he makes, but based on discussions with him, I would guess about $110,000 a year. He lives in Central Ohio, so that's a decent salary for here. I do know he became an attorney only for the money. He had been a high school teacher in his 20s.

My view is that you pick which one you would like better.

well there's just one issue wrote:

most bankers and lawyers I've met are douchebags..........you only get to live once....do you really want to spend your one and only life as a douchebag?

Most? How about ALL.

How about do something that makes the world even a little bit better, or at least does no harm? Your work sucks money and value from the economy. You produce nothing. You are a vampire, lapping blood from the arteries of our system. Yes, you should feel shame. Most of the current banking/market activity in this country has nothing to do with Main Street and everything to do with exploiting cracks and fissures in the overall structure of the system. The speed traders, for example, who spent millions to get inches closer to NYSE servers to execute their trades a few milliseconds faster. The multiple ways hedgers bet for and against business activities, knowing that their very bets are manipulating the market itself. Scumbags, all of you. Yeah, everyone is stuck in the market now, praying the whole house of cards doesn't collapse and leave them starving without a roof over their heads when they're 70 years old. No pensions, no security, mostly wage slave and gig work, none of it worth a damn. Of course, with every crash, the elites get a little richer while the rest of us divide the remaining crumbs. Yes, your activity is immoral and I hope bankers pay a steep price when it all comes crashing down.

itsgetsbetter15 wrote:

What am I supposed to do? quit my job and make less money?

What job do you do that is so noble and morally superior?

Do you want to live in a society where the stock market doesnt exist?

Where companies cannot get access to debt or equity financing? (pretty sure all the internet and consumer products you consume needed that to get started by the way).

Where founders cannot sell their companies for cash after slaving away for decades with little to show for it until a sale?

Where individuals cannot invest in other companies to protect and grow their retirement nest eggs?

Many good points already made.

Many finance guys do not need an MBA to advance if they have the mental and social chops while you will always need a JD. They can also go back and do an executive MBA if need be while having the money to pay for it instead of taking on massive debt. From what I've seen from my friends, it's easier and more lucrative to be a middling finance person than an average lawyer.

Find something you are good at and enjoy it in either field.

I am by no means old, but throughout my life I have seen the world slowly slip into the mindset that you predominately see in these posts. "I have never lied", "I have never broken a law", "For the good of the business"- I wonder if there is any self reflection of the harm laid upon their fellow human beings?; who am I kidding when the winners never need look upon the victims of their success.

My grandfather, after serving his country, was able to support a family of six. A house, two cars, a great education, and the ability to further themselves in life. This was done as the sole bread winner, working as a windshield repairman at Speedy Autoglass. I would not be surprised if the significance of this was lost on the majority of posters in this thread.

Here is my career:

I work for a big asset manager on the east coast I’m a 37 year old man.

Went to a better than average private 4 year college in the NE-10. BA in business admin with a 2.9gpa

1.5 years: Started in a back office accounting job making 33k a year base plus OT. Averaged 50 hours a week. Worked a lot of hours, always volunteered to work holidays and OT etc. Promoted 1x and left company making line 37k base.

4 years: current firm working back office valuation. 1st base was 42k plus OT. 50 hours typically a week or more. Promoted a few times. Met a group of similar people still working with a lot of them.

8 years: current firm working front office compliance. Promoted 2x. Left the job making $92k + 25% bonus + other incentives on average about $10k a year

1 year: Work front office for an advisor offering support for investment management operations. $102k + 30% bonus + incentives 1st one was $18k.

It’s not crazy money but I get to work at 830 and leave at 5 now. I’m not working like crazy anymore and I’m supporting a family. Point is I wasn’t a great student but I go in at a good company, met a good crew, worked hard, proved myself and now I’m working in the front office making good money.

Doing good in school and going to a good school will get you a step up but hard work and dedication will get you far.

If your point is that blue collar workers used to be able to afford a middle class lifestyle and that there is some kind of inequitable wealth gap today, that’s a fair conversation to have.

But I would also note that it sounds like your grandfather was a service provider just like the bankers and lawyers commenting on this thread.

Most of them (including me) are working for the purpose of providing comfort and security for themselves and their families, just like your grandfather did. The fact that doing so as today requires more education isn’t their fault and doesn’t somehow make their professions inherently dishonorable any more than being blue collar made your grandfather’s service job more noble or altruistic. It just means that they have adapted to the changing times.

Plenty of words that say nothing except to note that you are comfortable, something the elites in this country are very good at. Big law is anything but noble. Finance is worse. Yes, YOU are a huge part of the problem. Does it matter to you that 99.5% of the people in this country, regardless of educational attainment, are wage slaves and will never have security, solidity, a pension? It makes me cringe how smug and comfortable American elites are, knowing full well that most of their fellow Americans are simply hoping not to starve to death in old age. That is what has become of this great land. It all needs to be reconsidered and rebuilt, hopefully using the massive wealth to be clawed back from the elites. Class division? Damned right.

long time lawyer redux wrote:

If your point is that blue collar workers used to be able to afford a middle class lifestyle and that there is some kind of inequitable wealth gap today, that’s a fair conversation to have.

But I would also note that it sounds like your grandfather was a service provider just like the bankers and lawyers commenting on this thread.

Most of them (including me) are working for the purpose of providing comfort and security for themselves and their families, just like your grandfather did. The fact that doing so as today requires more education isn’t their fault and doesn’t somehow make their professions inherently dishonorable any more than being blue collar made your grandfather’s service job more noble or altruistic. It just means that they have adapted to the changing times.

To the extent I’m elite (Which is a stretch, but close enough for our purposes) it is because I was fortunate enough to be born with an above average intellect and the discipline to employ that intellect in a productive way. Kind of like being born with a highly trainable vo2max and the discipline needed to work out.

I still had to do the workouts and run the miles.

You assail the self-sufficient as if we have done something wrong, when in fact we are adding to society. Being a service provider isn’t inherently wrong. Windshield repairmen, restaurant workers, accountants, lawyers, are all just finding their way through the modern day of hunting and gathering.

Some lament that we aren’t producing anything. That’s true, but it is true as a result of the evolution of our economy, which has evolved to a service economy. Manufacturing makes up less than a third of our jobs.

My wife and I also volunteer in our community and we pay close to six figures in income and property taxes and are this making a contribution when many others pay no income tax.

Were we supposed to turn down jobs so that we could be put to a less effective use of our skills?

But you won’t listen to the descriptions of what we actually do for work or what contributions we make because you have kicked into your preconceived notions of the socioeconomic classes.

Yes, you're right, I will no longer listen to elites explain that they worked hard for what they have. That statement means you have little understanding of this world.

Change is coming, folks. The current Golden Age of Oligarchy is going to come to a close very soon and it will not be pretty.

WhyRegisterHere? wrote:

Yes, you're right, I will no longer listen to elites explain that they worked hard for what they have. That statement means you have little understanding of this world.

Change is coming, folks. The current Golden Age of Oligarchy is going to come to a close very soon and it will not be pretty.

Man, you reek of bitterness. Take your moralizing somewhere else, you have no idea how clueless you sound. If you want to debate the ethics of the modern economic system, of which corporate law, finance, and the capital markets are critical aspects of and responsible for driving massive economic growth and prosperity for society as a whole, start your own thread.

To the OP - I work at an investment firm and used to work in investment banking. Both finance and law are lucrative career options for anyone that can survive the grind and your skills/interests may be more suited towards one or the other, but generally finance has more comp upside, is closer to the business decision making at a younger age, doesn’t require expensive grad school, and is more interesting (especially the investing side). Law is a bit more nichey as well with limited natural alternatives once you’re in the field, while banking will afford you greater career optionality into many areas of finance and business. You will work very long hours (often at very mind numbing tasks) initially in these careers, but that is true of the vast majority of high paying jobs, many of which are frankly even harder to get into than finance (e.g., programming at Google, or medicine). For reference, entry level banking jobs out of undergrad will typically pay 170k or so, mid level should be in the mid to high 6 figures, and of course senior guys will be in the 7 figures.

A lawyer with banker’s hours.

Man, you reek of entitlement and privilege. Enjoy it while you can and always remember, you were born on third base. Pay attention to what's going on in the world.

yahoo1991 wrote:

Man, you reek of bitterness.

You forgot prostitute.