Peter Snell is the Greatest Middle-Distance Runner Ever. Change my view.

said88 wrote:

It seems that Coedeppe has found a new enemy with Kenya and East Africa in general. But we should not forget that the TWO FAMELYS of Elliott and Snell have "produced" runners who have set several World Records and won many medals. Just two familys! Compare this with around 200 Million people of East Africa (Kenya has not 70 Million people, but numbers and Coedeppe is something special). Coedeppe is close to complete his proof that in fact East Africans are just very bad in distance running.

I'm beginning to think that Saiepoed and El Kainio are the same person.

Yes, it is notable that two of the greatest ever middle-distance runners , who would almost certainly be competitive today, came from a genetic pool of 10 million, especially as a host of other runners came along with them, such as Dixon, Lovelock, Walker etc etc. Somewhat does put a dent in the theory that 250 million East Africans are genetically so superior that their present dominance cannot in any way be attributed to a manifestly obvious doping problem.

said88 wrote:

change_my_view wrote:

Undefeated in Olympic Competition

World Record Holder in 800, Half Mile, 1000, 1500, Mile

Snell never has held the 1500m WR.

He has had just three Olympic Competitions. Would he still be undefeated if he had competed in Mexico and Munich? Probably not.

But I don't want to put down his achievements, Snell definitely is one of the all-time greats in middle distance running. But I would not rank him as Nr. 1, mainly because his career just was too short. Coe's fantastic records and his much longer career at the top gives him the advantage in my opinion.

He would have had a great chance to win the 800m in Mexico. In 1964 he finished nearly a second ahead of the Kenyan Kiprugut (who finished third). In 68, Doublell won gold only 2/10ths of a second ahead of silve medallist Kiprugut. Doubell equalled Snell's world record (run on grass) in the altitude of Mexico. Maybe Snell would have ran under 1:44 in Mexico. He would still only have been 29 but retired in 1965. He lost a few 1500m races in 65 through lack of motivation, probably knowing he wasn't going to go on to Mexico. Very few runners from that era continued on into their late twenties. They were part-timers and had to think about careers aside of athletics.

The fact that he achieved so much in such short space a time is an argument for his greatness, not the reverse.

As far as not breaking the 1500m WR is concerned, the WR at the time was held by Herb Elliott, certainly the greatest ever 1500 runner at that point and it was a strong record at the time, probably better than Filbert Bayi's record (by the time Coe broke it in 79). Elliott's WR was almost 5 seconds faster than it had been only 5 years before he broke it, and it took a freak like Ryun to bring it down.

Was Coe's Olympic competition better? Yes, almost certainly. Coe was denied the 'double double' by Cruz, and Ovett, two of the greatest middle-distance runners in history recording two of the greatest ever 800m olympic performances. We can't forget Coe won both gold at boycotted Games. I only think that might be relevant because the 1500m might have been very different in Moscow with Scott, Wessinghage, and Walker. Coe would have still beaten them, but perhaps it might have been played out more favourably for Ovett?

change_my_view wrote:

1960: Olympic Gold in 800

1964: Olympic Gold in 800 & 1500

Undefeated in Olympic Competition

World Record Holder in 800, Half Mile, 1000, 1500, Mile

800 Time of 1:44.3 (on a grass track... en-route to half-mile) still world-class today, and still continental record

Snell = Middle-Distance GOAT. Change my view.

Interesting that Lydiard often said that Snell was only the third best at his grammar school.

Lydiard thought Michael Mackey would have been a huge threat to Elliot in Rome had he continued with running instead of pursuing academics and career.

A philosophical summary, but I don't think the fact that 80 and 84 had boycotting countries has much if any relevance. There were also boycotts in 76 (both Kenya, Ethiopia and most African countries), 88 and 64, when Snell did his double.

We don't hear people claiming Juantorena or Walker were winners in boycotted games! You can only race against the people there on the day, and I would argue strongly that the Olympic fields Coe faced in 84 in particular (in both events) were stronger than they had been in 76 and 88. Indeed, I think the 800 event in LA, with 4 rounds in 4 days, was one of the greatest 3 Olympic 800's in history.

I don't think Walker, Scott or Wessinghage would have affected the final result had they run in Moscow 1500m, but the race could have played out differently. But by the same token, had Paige run the 800m, then that race may have ended with a different result, as Coe may have seen him as a greater threat. Who knows. I'm pretty certain that had they all been there, Coe and Ovett would still have won both between them and medaled in both.

As far as the LA Olympics are concerned, there was no one absent that would have posed a threat for a medal in either event. There were 140 nations competing in LA 84, compared to 83 in Rome and 93 in Tokyo.

Agreed.

I did find an interesting interview with Snell, where he talks about facing Ryun (Snell did actually beat both Ryun and Keino in Tokyo!), why he quit athletics at age 25, and whether he might have won in Mexico if he had carried on.

The old "all Kenyans run" myth. The biggest sport, by far, in Kenya is soccer. Running is big in a couple of tribes on the Kenyan highland, but the general population only cares about soccer, just as the do in most of the world outside North America, Australia and Eastern Asia.

Yeah, that's why when the top two clubs in Kenya meet (both Nairobi teams - so a local derby) they have about 5,000 watching max, whereas recently an u18 track meet attracted 50,000. As I've said before, even if every Kenyan schoolkid did dream of becoming Gareth Bale, the fact is, all they can do is run. Gareth Bale could do more than run 2:20 800m as a 12 year old off of soccer training - that's why he earns a million every week with Real Madrid instead of trying to compete with doped up Kenyans for peanuts.

Another very interesting and relevant piece from the Snell interview :

GCR: Have you followed the sport of track and field closely over the years since your retirement and who are some of your favorite competitors?

PS Track and field has saddened my quite a bit with the infiltration of performance enhancing drugs as it is not clear what is ‘for real’ to a degree. I was very impressed with Said Aouita in part because of his range from 800 meters to 5000 meters. As far as the British middle distance runners in the early 1980s I was glad when Steve Cram knocked Sebastian Coe off as I preferred his personality.

Aouita broke Snell's heart and his belief in track and field, just as Aouita did with millions of track and field fans around the world.

Wow!

Great find and interview. Thanks.

I knew Ryun was in Tokyo as a youngster, but the penny didn't drop that Snell would have faced Ryun and Keino in 64, although clearly they were on the up at the time and not the threats they would later become.

I think peak Snell would always beat a peak Ryun over 800m, but I think it would be the opposite over 1500m. Snell was muscular and not best suited physiologically for the mile, IMO, whereas Ryun was probably the ideal body type for 1500m running.

Coevett wrote:

Another very interesting and relevant piece from the Snell interview :

GCR: Have you followed the sport of track and field closely over the years since your retirement and who are some of your favorite competitors?

PS Track and field has saddened my quite a bit with the infiltration of performance enhancing drugs as it is not clear what is ‘for real’ to a degree. I was very impressed with Said Aouita in part because of his range from 800 meters to 5000 meters. As far as the British middle distance runners in the early 1980s I was glad when Steve Cram knocked Sebastian Coe off as I preferred his personality.

Aouita broke Snell's heart and his belief in track and field, just as Aouita did with millions of track and field fans around the world.

This is a great documentary, which you've probably seen.

The whole programme is good, with details on Elliott, Snell (several interviews), Coe et al.

The link starts with Snell's (followed by Cram's) thoughts on Coe.

Coe once again proving himself to be a racist jellyfish

Coevette/cor-vet you're a piece of crap

Odd that Coe trained mostly on roads, which cannot be good for the legs, but a lot of the sprints were uphill.

It's a strong case. Snell probably doesn't get talked about enough, he is definitely in there

Why must you poison this discussion with your racism?

Deanouk wrote:

said88 wrote:

Snell never has held the 1500m WR.

He has had just three Olympic Competitions. Would he still be undefeated if he had competed in Mexico and Munich? Probably not.

But I don't want to put down his achievements, Snell definitely is one of the all-time greats in middle distance running. But I would not rank him as Nr. 1, mainly because his career just was too short. Coe's fantastic records and his much longer career at the top gives him the advantage in my opinion.

Agree.

How many times did he run 1500m by itself (not counting the 1964 heat and semi)? Snell not holding the 1500m WR is the same as Coe's not running sub 1:43 again after 1981, just a phenomenon of other schedules and other priorities, in short he didn’t need to.

I have always considered Coe's 1979 1:42.3 as the real undisputed breaking of Snell's 1962 record. It is really Coe's 18 years vs Snell's 17 years. As I posted earlier it is a choice between the two because third??? Ovett 1 Gold & Bronze from 3 Olympics, Aouita never won a 1500m medal, Cram a silver, Makhloufi 1 Gold 2 silvers.

What are the most important points for a ranking of "best/greatest" athlete?

For sure best performances, championship performances, win-loss record, longevity ...

I'm really surprised when people bring the personal circumstances of some specific athlete into such discussions. Snell also had to look for his job/his family - and therefore has had good reasons to finish his career at 26? Well, this definitely was the case, but WHY someone has finished his career obviously is totally irrelevant for such discussions. Paavo Nurmi would have competet in four Olympics (if he would not have been banned in '32); Al Oerter has won at four Olympics. And there are many more examples. For sure even in the 1960s (and before) to excel at three (or even more) Olympics was better than at two. I really can't understand how someone can differ here. And for sure we are just comparing absolute performances, not how they were achieved (if anything was according to the rules).

If an 60 year old finishes 8th at the Olympics, we might be deeply impressed and might think that this is a much "better" achievement than by the athletes in front of him. But for sure the winner gets (by full right) the Gold medal.

How many people can't even start to train seriously for a myriad of different reasons. Should we really bring them into the discussion: "But look, if he ... than...". That's obviously laughable.

Peter Snell's career was reletively short, totally irrelevant - for this discussion - why. Coe's records are (for me) much more impressive than Snell's. He has had the much longer career at or close to the very top. For me, Coe has to be ranked ahead of Snell.

Deanouk wrote:

not only was there amphetamines and steroids being used in 1960 - 64, they weren't banned and there was no test for them!

There was no test, but they weren't legal, as PED's had been banned in 1928. Though speed didn't exist yet, cocaine and opioids did, and it would be naive to think they weren't being used.

Another thing you didn't mention is that speed is a far more effective PED than anything else, including steroids. It is the equivalent of an enduring adrenaline rush, enabling you to perform well beyond your ordinary physical limits. But that effect diminishes over a few years of cumulative use.

if we're being honest, nobody has ever reasonably suspected snell of doping. there is lots to suggest the coe doped.

when you consider that snell won three golds, with wins in both the 800 and the 1500, and coe only got two in the 1500... have to agree. snell GOAT