Heart rate question

mplatt wrote:

I am sure you see my point. There are just too many other variables involved for heartrate to be relied on for any precision of training or racing.

mplatt,

I have been going back and forth on this for some time. Now it's not as easy as it may at first appear. Let me cite the following from the IAAF booklet on marathon training by E Arcelli and R Canova where they state the following on page 10:

"Marathon runners of significantly different levels have been found to have similar values for max HR and for HR at anaerobic threshold; it is therefore probable that the limiting factor as regards the amount of blood that can be conveyed from the lungs to the muscles lies for the most part in stroke output."

So I read this to mean that 2 athletes running at the same effort have similar HR's which is what I'm trying to find out. I'm just curious if anyone reading this has a link or a book or a study that I can reference so I can read for myself what the studies addressing this issue actually state.

Given the credibility of the authors, I have no doubt what they say is entirely correct. I just want to read more about it is all.

If someone has a link or a ref they can cite that I can look up, I would greatly appreciate it.

mplatt. See ya Saturday ready to roll. My achilles is screwed from wearing spikes at the PA meet. The first time I wore them since the 1987 national meet in SF, so right now, I'm hobbling around the house waiting for the wife to find time to ultrasound my leg. Best of luck. I'll be there watching, really wish I was racing instead.

Joe

Joe Rubio wrote:

I'm hobbling around the house waiting for the wife to find time to ultrasound my leg.

No shit, aren't we all? ;-)

but......... wrote:

Yes I am saying that. Marathon training is Marathon training and 1500m training is 1500m training. You don't run a 1500 PR and a Marathon PR in the same week.

Running a PR is far from necessary to reach VO2max. The 1500m is run at a pace much faster than VO2max. Hitting VO2max is not a problem for any normal human being year round whether they be a marathon runner or a middle distance runner. RACING 1500m will result in VO2max being reached.

Yes I see what you mean Phoenix, but you and I are talking about two different things. You are talking about V02max pace, whereas I am talking about actual V02max.

A runner doesn't run a PR for the 1500m a week or two before a Marathon, because they haven't trained for that kind of pace. If it was possible to do what you suggest then all of us running Marathons would do it.

Joe Rubio

Enrico Arcelli and Renato Canova they are right !

I myself did the experience with lots fo runners, that i made them use an HRM during the real runs. I did more than 50 cases in the marathon run - for some 20 runner´s, male and female, top class runner´s, average runner´s, poor runner´s, the same runner in different marathons with diferent shape condition, diferent min. and max. heart beat values, difreent weather conditions - all kind of diferent cases for the same runner and different runner´s

ALL OF THEM they did a 162-165 HR total average range for the total marathon distance. Of course they have peaks, but the total average that´s quite the same for everybody.

A single case that´s a my own runner that uses the HRM in the marathon. When he start training with me his marathon PB that´s 2:57, now that´s 2:36 - less 21 minutes, but the average range beats in the marathon are always the same - 164 beats.

Two years ago i did read a article from a russian coach that lives in Spain now, that based in what i did explain above, that he agrees and that he says he did lots of tests in early USSR - he uses a simple formula, and with a test result as 3-4X2000m for diferent paces - and knowing the pace and the HR average he is able to calculate quite accurate estimate Race Paces for that runner´s in events from 5000m to the marathon.

Unhappily i don´t know where is that article no more, but i will take a look.

Antonio Cabral wrote:ALL OF THEM they did a 162-165 HR total average range for the total marathon distance.

...the average range beats in the marathon are always the same - 164 beats.

ALL of them?

I have a tough time with this Antonio.

Four of my friends, who shall remain nameless, ran marathons this year and had the following average HR for the distance:

Joe A:

HRmax - 184

HRavg for marathon - 161 (88% of HRmax)

Joe B:

HRmax - 182

HRavg for marathon - 159 (87%)

Joe C:

HRmax - 200

HRavg for marathon - 178 (89%)

Joe D:

HRmax - 170

HRavg for marathon - 148 (87%)

I'll have data for two more buddies this weekend. I don't know their HRmax off the top of my head (I can get it), but I'll bet their average HR for the race will be something like 87-90% of HRmax (they're both well-trained aerobically).

In my case, when I get around to running my next marathon, I expect I'll average 150-152 for the race (my HRmax is 170). There's just no way I'll ever average over 160 for a marathon.

I should add, for context:

Joe A:

3:01 (2:59 PR)

fast twitch muscle guy

Joe B:

2:48 (2:45 PR)

fast twitch

Joe C:

2:42 (half minute PR)

slow twitch muscle guy

Joe D:

3:31 (3:23 PR)

slow twitch

This is an admittedly small sample size. The variation of HRavg suggests that variation across a larger population would be very significant (ie not 160-164). The range in %HRmax is very small, though, suggesting a pretty strong relationship (for these four runners, anyway).

Pete

Let´s see if I can find the article and you will judge by yourself.

I´m quoting by memory.

Then we will discuss later.

In my data, I´m talking about average runner´s but with some experience that know a lot what pace they shall run for the shape they are when they run that marathons. Ex: That´s not a runner that do a first marathon tyry or that run the first half in 1:20 and ends in 3:00 or vice versa or that don´t follow in a main event pace. Also they have a maximum HRB in 185 and 198. Nothing similar to 172 max, beats – which I doubt that´s accurate. Also in most of the runs (or them all) they did their PBs or very close. Also most of the runs were done mainly in a flat course. When you did a poor race according your shape that´s for sure that you have not the same close average range.

I also did test Alberto Chaiça – our best Portuguese marathon runner for the moment in long specific workouts and you have the same values – 168-172 if that´s a 10000m runs; 166-168 if that´s a half marathon and 162-164 if that´s his marathon event pace.

Antonio Cabral wrote:In my data, I´m talking about average runner´s but with some experience that know a lot what pace they shall run for the shape they are when they run that marathons. Ex: That´s not a runner that do a first marathon tyry or that run the first half in 1:20 and ends in 3:00 or vice versa or that don´t follow in a main event pace. Also they have a maximum HRB in 185 and 198. Nothing similar to 172 max, beats – which I doubt that´s accurate. Also in most of the runs (or them all) they did their PBs or very close. Also most of the runs were done mainly in a flat course. When you did a poor race according your shape that´s for sure that you have not the same close average range.

Antonio,

All four of those runners are fairly experienced (ie multiple marathons) "average" runners, and as you can see they all ran fairly close to PR times (one set a new PR). They also all ran fairly close to even splits on fast courses this fall.

I went back further into my records and can give you one more from the spring:

Joe E:

HRmax - 190

HRavg - 169 (89%)

time - 2:31 (previous PR 2:55, but HM PR 1:11)

I haven't gone out of my way to look for outliers, Antonio. Of the 50 or so people I know who track HR fairly closely, I have time/HR splits for these five, and these are what the numbers are. Clearly, they don't fall within a nice tight band from 162-165.

Now, if you had a group of runners with HRmax ranging from 185-190, then you would see a nice tight grouping like that. And I suppose that those kinds of numbers (185-190) are probably fairly common, but they definitely don't respresent a typical distribution among, say, a group of 50 or 100 runners.

As far as not believing that someone could have 172 as HRmax, I can assure you with a high degree of confidence that my own is 168-170. I've been tracking HR during training runs and races for a couple of years, and I've only ever seen 170 a couple of times (near end of PR 5k this summer), and never higher. My HRM tracks max, average and end HR for every split, so if it were ever higher, I would know. Mind you, I'm nearly 40, so HRmax should be lower for me than when I was in my 20s. But, I also have a 40ish friend with HRmax in the low 200s.

Anyway, just some data to contemplate - not trying to pick a fight or anything. I am interested in seeing the article if you find it.

Antonio Cabral wrote:I also did test Alberto Chaiça – our best Portuguese marathon runner for the moment in long specific workouts and you have the same values – 168-172 if that´s a 10000m runs; 166-168 if that´s a half marathon and 162-164 if that´s his marathon event pace.

Sorry, one more thing...

Based on the 162-164 HRmarathon, I'll bet a six pack of Canadian beer that his HRmax at the time was 183, plus or minus a couple of beats.

The HRavg-10k corresponds very well to what I saw for myself this year. I ran a new PR and managed an average HR of about 160.

Damn, Antonio, I read your post too quick - you said event pace workouts, not races, so that HR is at marathon pace for some shorter interval(s), not for a full marathon. Unless he ran the full distance, the HRavg wouldn't be representative of what he'd see for the full pull. If he ran 13-15 miles continuous at M-pace, you would probably start to see the HR (at the end - not the average) which would be roughly the same as average HR for a whole marathon.

Hello again Antonio!

Antonio, I have to admit that I agree with Pete here:

I would expect that for most runners, their avg % of max HR during a marathon would be fairly similar, but their ACTUAL average HR for the marathon always being nearly the same(your data).....that seems odd to me. But maybe I am mistaken of course. Yet I seem to constantly read that runners (depending age, sex, and other genetic differences) have very widely differing max HR's. I would therefore not expect runners who have very different max HR's, and who are running at the same effort to have the same average HR's during a race…..would you? But that is what you found and it suggests that one’s MAX HR is pretty meaningless for a runner to know, and that AVG HR values are consistent for all, and, since it would be the same for all, could be used by everyone to train/race by(no matter what your max is, and therefore throw the concept of % of max HR out). Now all of that surprises me.

Is it possible we are misinterpreting Renato’s data? Let’s read it again:

"Marathon runners of significantly different levels HAVE BEEN FOUND to have similar values for max HR and for HR at anaerobic threshold; it is therefore probable that the limiting factor as regards the amount of blood that can be conveyed from the lungs to the muscles lies for the most part in stroke output."

"…HAVE BEEN FOUND…" Does that mean that:

1) marathon runners of different levels are REGULARLY(almost always) FOUND to have similar values for Max HR and for HR at anaerobic threshold (and thus likely they race at the same avg HR for a marathon)?? OR…….Does it mean that:

2) marathon runners of different levels SOMETIMES(they exist) have the same values for max HR and for HR and anaerobic threshold??

I think it means the latter. And thus, in my opinion, Renato’s point about his data is: there is more to performance than max HR and HR at AT (i.e., AT as a % of max HR), and another variable is STROKE OUTPUT.

I don’t think Renato’s statement is trying to address Joe’s question of:

"Would the heart rate for several athlete's competing in the same event, racing in the same time, all running at max effort have the same or very similar heart rates during the event?"

No, in fact, Renato’s information addresses a question that would go like this:

"Would the PERFORMANCES (times) be similar for several athlete’s all running at max effort and each setting a PR in the marathon who each have the SAME MAX HR AND SAME HR AT ANAEROBIC THRESHOLD ? "

And I think that many might answer THAT question intuitively with a "yes", while Renato shows us it is SOMETIMES a big fat no." (and by this he demonstrates that having an Anaerobic Threshold that occurs at a high(or low) % of max HR is not as significant as some think. If one’s "stroke output" is weak(or strong), performance might not be as strong(or weak) as one might expect)

So Joe, I think Renato’s data is not what you want to answer YOUR question. I think Pete’s and Antonio’s is. Based on their info, the answer appears to be: "OFTEN the HR AVG’s are the same(Antonio’s data), BUT…..clearly there are many cases where they are NOT the same(Pete’s and many others). " So maybe 65-75% of the time the answer is a yes ( a rough estimate), but certainly NOT a consistent yes. There are a good chunk of instances (with runners with widely varying max HR’s) where your answer will be no, and since runners are individuals, that might be the most important thing to get from your inquiry.

Pete

Next time pay more attention, that means to read carefully, or you will lose your bet with me !

Anyhow, this ends here because until i get the article. I´m looking for the article. But when imention “average runners” i´m not thinking about 3:30 runners, but all sub 3:00. And i´m not thinking about extremes HR beats.

Also remember Joe question “Would the heart rate for several athlete's competing in the same event, racing in the same time, all running at max effort have the same or very similar heart rates during the event?

For example, would 3 guys racing 3:58 for a 1500 have the same heart rate during that race if they all ran PR's?”

About extreme HR beats you don´t need to go far away. I´m 50 years old now. My actual max. rate - i don´t know if that´s maximum, that´s the maximum i did take in workouts recently that´s 206 - very close to what i did got with 18 years old ! And that´s not a Polar error or mal function – because since a long ago I know I do a very high pulse. My basal/min. heart that´s 44 by minute. I did run a lot and i still run mainly for fit condition, but i still compete from times to times.

When i go to the cardilogist, he made me do all blood analysis and all the rest – he says all my values are ok or very good – from cholesterol to the pressure to red cells – he made me do a test of effort and he says that my heart it looks like a 18 years teenager. Very flexible ! A larger amplitude. That´s not distant than my heart with 18 years old really.

I ask him that´s not usual to have more than 200 at my age - because i read that herat beats that decreases with the age close and after the forties.

Unhappily top athletes they don´t like to use HRM in the runs and i agree. That´s unconvenient that you feel something around your trunk!

Sir-Lance-Lot

That´s the same answer that to Peter. I try to look for the article and we will see.

Antonio Cabral wrote:

Pete

1. Next time pay more attention, that means to read carefully, or you will lose your bet with me !

...

2. But when imention “average runners” i´m not thinking about 3:30 runners, but all sub 3:00. And i´m not thinking about extremes HR beats.

...

3. I ask him that´s not usual to have more than 200 at my age - because i read that herat beats that decreases with the age close and after the forties.

...

4. Unhappily top athletes they don´t like to use HRM in the runs and i agree. That´s unconvenient that you feel something around your trunk!

Sir-Lance-Lot

That´s the same answer that to Peter. I try to look for the article and we will see.

1. Fair enough. I'll read more slowly next time. Anyway, based on revised interpretation, my six-pack is on 186 plus or minus two beats. So, what was it....?

2. The examples were 2:31, 2:42, 2:48, 3:01 and 3:31 - not all 3:30 runners. Pretty good range, yet all pretty close to 88% of HRmax for an average.

3. I mentioned a 40ish buddy with high HRmax, but another buddy is 52 and his HRmax is also over 200. His was over 220 in his prime, so it has dropped somewhat. On a related note, I'll betcha another six-pack if YOU run a marathon you'll see close to 180 for HRavg in the race (IF well-trained). Consider that both a dare AND an experiment of one.

4. After a couple of weeks, you get used to the stupid thing, but yeah, I hear you.

Antonio:

two new data points from marathons over the past month or so:

Runner F:

HRmax - 185

HRav - 166 (89.7%)

2:57 (4 min PR)

Runner G:

HRmax - 182

HRav - 161 (88.5%)

3:08 (PR 2:59)

Find that article yet?

Pete

I hardly try to find the article in my computer. I lost last. I did try a english runner that i know i send him an e-mail with an english transation of that article. Some days ago he replies me saying that his won computer did a virus and in his officd they clean most of his personal stuff. bad luck ! I did a serch in the net guessing that one of the article authours that´s Matveyev the russian coach that build up preridisation, I did serch in spanish language. Nothing - zero. I did try Katerinna Kramenkova a past russian runner that curiosly end his carrer and lives in Portugal actually, because she is mentioned in that article. Nothing ! I´m doing one more try with a portuguese frind that i did send that. he says me that if he have that, just in paper format. This weekend i did a travel to Spain to see SEville-half marathon run with my friend, i remember him that onec again. kets see, but i less and less hope to find that and that´s a very interesting article. I will never give up, but the chaces to find that article are minor.

I will promise that if i did find that i will let you know.